saunders: young not a starter in this league
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 21, 2009 6:25 PM EST
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Print"I think Nick is what he is. As a coach you have to understand he's a streak player where you put him in and if he's hot you play him and if he's not then you'll have to sit him down. I don't think he's a guy that you can play 30, 35 minutes. He might be a guy that's more effective playing 20 than he is when you're playing 32."
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2009/12/saunders-benches-ineffective-s.html#more
this seems a VERY significant statement to me.
i happen to agree. but way to kill any potential trade value there flip!
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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Sell low!
I’m pretty darned certain the Wolves’ complete vacuum at either wing spot would mean Young got those 30 minutes a night to find out whether he could do it or not….
But, honestly Flip: those are the things you tell the GM at those end-of-year meetings. You don’t tell the player that, ever, and the media?
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
i mean
he could be trying to motivate nick but…
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 21, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
It's weird that he'd say it in a year where Young's all around game is sort of coming together
Like, he’s actually being praised for his defense now. If he could just get back to coming off of screens (why, exactly, can’t he?), he would be a decent rotation player. I think that his case is also helped by him being the only player on the roster who’s a natural shooting guard, since Foye’s too small, Miller’s too big and slow, and Stevenson is the worst offensive player in the league.
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 21, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
worst offensive player in the league tho........ man
i dont even remember when or how the wiz got him
by Freedom Hurley on Dec 21, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
Worst in the league?
Let’s match him up with Corey ‘everything I do is the first time, at high-speed’ Brewer and see who comes out…. uh, on the bottom.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
DeShawn is much, much, much worse than Brewer
No contest. DeShawn’s PER is 3.1!?!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=VZ72L
DeShawn’s stats are worse across the board.
Losing franchises
lol, our franchise is in such a state that we’re bragging/arguing with fans of other woebegone franchises about who has the worst players. For my money, Deshawn’s stats are legendarily bad this year and no one can come close to matching them.
I hadn't actually even looked at the numbers
But yeah, I think it is very possible that Deshawn’s the worst offensive player in the league now. Maybe someone who knows how to find a page on basketball reference where they have everyone in the league’s stats next to each other could sort them by offensive rating?
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 22, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yup, worst in the league
Among players with 10+ games played and 10+ min/gm.
http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=%25&yr=2010&gp=10&mins=10
Click on “PER” twice to sort from low to high.
Sometime pay some attention to Corey B.
Seriously, it’s a zen experience. Everything the kid does, it’s as if he’s newly discovered it. Dribble? What’s that? That river is just never the same one. He goes for a layup, and does it off the wrong foot or out of step. It’s uncanny.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
If we had Corey Brewer instead of DeShawn we would probably be a .500 team right now.
Look how many close games we’ve lost with DeShawn going 0-for even though the other team barely bothers to guard him.
Wolves fans say the same exact sorts of things.
The Wolves (and here is your complimentary preview of tonight) have probably the worst set of wings in the league. Their roster, for outside shooting, is atrocious. Corey Brewer’s raw numbers might look like okay totals to you, but they’re happening because defenses leave him totally alone as a way of begging the guy to jack stuff up.
Al Jefferson is a low-post scoring machine when he’s healthy (and teams treat him basically as if he is, though his ACL injury is still hampering his lift). Kevin Love is a boarding monster, has great hands for passing (and the resulting nickname “Love Handles”), and has added the mid- and even long-range shot we knew he’d have from college. Jonny Flynn at PG has been an up-and-down rookie, and behind him Minny has another nice young piece in Ramon Sessions. Neither Flynn nor Sessions has a consistent jumper, however; they’re both best driving.
So, other teams basically clutter the lane and dare the Woofs to brick it up from outside.
Certain veteran types, like Damien Wilkins (recently they start the guy), stay within their (rightly limited) roles. Corey Brewer, though, “takes what the defense gives him.” They give him space, and he takes “good shots” that result in lines like “3-14 with 7 points.” It’s not so much that he’s a bad shooter, as that he was leading the team in shots for a while.
Even adjusted for time, per 36 minutes Corey Brewer takes more than twice as many shots as DeShawn. DeShawn Stevenson has taken 8 shots one time this season; Corey Brewer can put up 1-11 or 6-21 nights from the floor. When you see Corey shoot 9-16 or thereabouts, he’s doing it on dunks and wide, wide-open jumpers.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
What am I missing?
Last season, Nick Young held the guys he was guarding to an average PER of 15.7, the lowest on the team. (Numbers are per 82games.com.) This season, Young has held the guys he guards to an average PER of 11.5, the second lowest on the team to Butler’s 11.4.
So why, in Flip’s opinion, should Young only play when he is hot offensively?
Is it because PER doesn’t measure help defense, and Young is terrible at that, hurting team defense? The stats say that the Wizards are a better defensive team when Young is on the floor.
Is it because Young is a poor passer or just gums up the offense, so when he isn’t hitting, he kills the offense? The stats say that the Wizards are a much better offensive team when Young is on the floor.
I am honestly asking — what am I missing here? Flip obviously knows a lot more and watches a lot more basketball than me, so what don’t I understand?
Personality
Flip doesn’t like NY’s personality. For example, he told him to stop smiling and constantly berates him. I suspect McGee is a goofball too, which limits his minutes in this organization.
Different people require different approaches in order to gain confidence and improve. It’s not easy for a coach, but requires a lot more patience than Flip has shown with McGee and Young.
Unfortunately, there are no quick fixes are in store, but Young and McGee are worth more elsewhere than here. I guess we can get another slow European player who can’t jump but can set a strong moving pick.
I agree with everything disgruntled
For two years now, Nick Young has had a substantially postive affect on the team’s performance. People think of him as streaky on offense and terrible on defense, when in fact he’s the best defensive guard on the team and he helps the offense simply by being a threat to score.
I understand that Young frustrates the coaches because they have to drastically simplify the schemes for him. But maybe that’s a good thing. The stats of the last two years show that the offense and defense are better when he is on the court.
This kind of reminds me of the Brendan Haywood situation 4 years ago. EJ loved Etan because he brought “intensity” on a consistant basis. He may have sucked, but he looked good doing so. Haywood looks kind of awkward and maybe even a bit lethargic when he is on the court. But the stats showed that he had a dramatically better effect on the team’s performance. For some reason, EJ could never figure that out. Maybe Flip can’t see Young’s influence either.
Yep
I like the Haywood/Thomas comparisons, especially since I think that it ties in nicely with Young being the only real option at shooting guard who has the right size for the position. I think that his defensive stats are a bit misleading since he rarely guards good scorers and is being compared to guys who were injured (Stevenson) or not natural fits for guarding shooting guards (McGuire, Foye, Miller, Mike James), but he’s definitely at least an adequate defender when you look at the good his offense does. Speaking of which, I actually think his real value on offense when he plays with the starters isn’t that he can throw the ball in the basket in isos but that he can shoot an adequate percentage on three pointers when the ball gets swung around the perimeter or kicked out after Haywood gets an offensive board. He’s no Reggie Miller, but the 35% or so that he’ll shoot on threes means a couple more easy points for the team each game, not to mention that he’s so shot happy that we don’t even have to worry about him catching, dribbling, then taking an 18 footer.
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 22, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
There's a difference I think
I agree that there are a lot of similarities, but I think there are differences too. I don’t think it’s quite so blatant with Young as it was with Haywood. (Remember, Young was totally awful for the beginning of the year).
The biggest one is that a good defensive center makes far more of an impact in this league than a good perimeter defender. Bad perimeter defense is bad, but bad interior defense is way worse.
The other thing is that Haywood was the only player who defended on the team then, and there was literally only one other option to choose from (Etan). Young is not the only player who needs shots on this team, and he isn’t the only other wing who defends. We’re also talking about several other alternatives for the shooting guard position.
I think Flip would appreciate Young more if there weren’t so many other scorers on this team. As it stands, he has to feed Young shots in order to get him to play good defense. It’s a tradeoff – keep him involved, and he’ll reward you on the other end. But a shot Young takes is one that one of the Big 3 usually has to take, so it’s harder for a coach to live with it. If we had Shane Battier, who never shoots, instead of Caron Butler, I think Flip could live with Young shooting more.
It’s an interesting parallel though and one with some lines of similarity. Clearly, Flip sees what he sees and doesn’t see all the data (or throws it aside because he doesn’t believe it).
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
NY has finally shown he can be a player in this league
and should be saluted for his improvement but he still rarely puts 2-3 good games together. He just not consistent offensively or defensively yet. I have always thought he could really thrive for a team like NO or Cleveland that need people with the ability ot get their own shot.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 23, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
nick is solely a one-on-one player
and i think that potentially ties it all together: the stats, the fan favorite (since he is an excellent one-on-one player), flip’s view of the guy, the fact that he looks lost much of the time
his jersey number is so fitting.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 22, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
But if he's helping the team so much on defense
And we need defense …
I guess I’m struggling to see what you’re really saying. I think most people acknowledge his offensive mindset is pretty off, but does it matter when he’s playing this well on defense.
His defensive on/off was pretty awesome last year too. At what point does this stop being an aberration?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
i think it's dangerous
to point at one stat and think we need to play a guy, but you might be onto something. young might be a good on the ball defender. he definitely has the athleticism. but that doesn’t mean he’s anything more than a one-on-one player on both ends of the court.
from my viewpoint, he’s got tunnel vision, and when he isn’t on the ball, he just kind of drifts out there. it’s like an and-1 mix tape game. but this is the nba. if you’re frequently out of position, or missing assignments, there is only so much a coach will put up with.
he is a talented individual player, so saunders might try to scheme to put his skills to use, but whatever he does with nick, it’ll probably be blatant, because young doesn’t seem to be adept at doing the little things. he’s too much of a showman.
anyway, that’s the best i can explain it. my qualitative assessment of the guy, fwiw.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 22, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
you know
nick played well last night. got a key steal. looked like he was in the right places. knocked down some shots. i’d LOVE to see more of that. against someone other than the sixers.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 23, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Well I think if Flip
wants us to wait until the midway point to pass judgement he should probably be doing the same…at least with this “trying to motivate through the media” tactic he seems to like to use. I can’t picture this promoting clubhouse cohesiveness. If this offense is going to fall back into it’s Big 3 mode then we will, once again, have young players who won’t have a chance to develop properly in game situations.
I know it’s real early yet, and I’m trying to stay positive, but with each passing game I’m souring just a little more towards Flip.
What do you want him to say?
Flip might as well not talk to the media if he’s not supposed to judge his team and his players. And how do you know that he doesnt tell his players what he tells the media?
And teams that need to win some games are going to do whatever works for them to win. Its not all about developing young players when your trying to win. If they’re helping you win than fine, play them but if not u don’t play them just because they need to “develop”.
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