The New "Trading Caron"
by Jon L on Dec 17, 2009 12:42 AM EST
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PrintWith apologies to Manimal Smith who started talking about this over a week ago, I think that if the Wizards are going to trade anyone this year, they should trade Caron Butler. I like Butler generally, but he's just not fitting into the new offensive system, he has just the eighth-best PER on the team (according to KnickerBlogger's stats and discounting Paul Davis and Mike James), and is liked and respected around the league and could bring back some decent value. So here are some ideas, all of which have been cleared through the ESPN Trade Machine (and I'm also trying to be reasonable for what the other teams will agree to):
The Pipe Dream: Butler to Golden State for Andris Biedrins and Anthony Morrow
This is a lot for Golden State to give up, and is predicated on Nelson deciding he hates Biedrins, which isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility. Biedrins has a great contract ($9m over five years) and could replace Haywood if the team decides they want to part ways with him this offseason.
The TruthAboutIt.net White Knight Tribute (jokes): Butler and Dominic McGuire to Philly for Jason Kapono, Primoz Brezec and Jason Smith
Kapono isn't great but could do a very good job coming off the bench and being run off of all of Saunders's screens, and both his and Brezec's contracts expire after this season. Meanwhile, Eddie Jordan gets a few guys who know the Princeton, and he can go back to giving McGuire minutes instead of other guys who might deserve them.
The "This Either Makes Too Much Sense, or No Sense": Butler to the Clippers for Marcus Camby
Camby becomes the backup center and his contract expires after this year. Butler gives the Clippers the option to not retain Al Thornton if they don't want to and still have some talent in between Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin.
The "I Hope He Wasn't One of the Guys Who Hated Saunders": Butler and Javaris Crittenton to Detroit for Rip Hamilton
Hamilton's contract isn't great, but he's certainly familiar with the offense, while the Pistons get to continue to turn the page into a new era.
The Salary Dump: Butler to Chicago for Jerome James and Jannero Pargo
Both players have expiring contracts; the problem with this one is that I don't know where Butler fits into the Salmons-Deng-Thomas rotation. Maybe they move Thomas in addition to this deal.
The "I'm Running Out of Ideas": Butler and Nick Young to Portland for Steve Blake, Travis Outlaw and Martell Webster
Steve Blake gets a homecoming of sorts (which would've mattered more with EJ), plus Portland clears some of their backcourt logjam. I don't love that Webster has four years left on his deal, but it's a reasonable overall price (less than $4.5m) and both the Blake and Outlaw contracts expire after this season.
Thoughts?
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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I still vote for
Trade with Golden State:
Hopefully:
Randolph + Azubuike + Claxton for Butler + Oberto + cut Boykins.
OR
Randolph + Turiaf + Claxton + 1st round pick for Butler + Oberto + cut Boykins.
I like the idea of the Biedrins trade, but I don’t think he helps us nearly as much as Brendan does. He has good shot blocking numbers but he isn’t a defensive anchor.
Don't like the 76ers or Bulls trade
The others would be good. If we went with salary dump then I imagine the whole team blowing up.
I don't know how I feel about Biedrins
He’s a great player, but he doesn’t really defend much, and I kind of worry about pairing him with Antawn.
That said, I think that trading Caron wouldn’t hurt us as much as it might seem right now. Mike Miller is better at the 3 than the 2, and he meshes a lot better with Gil and Antawn. If we could get a three point specialist who can defend shooting guards and some small forwards, I’d be happy. Basically the 2007 or 2008 DSteve would fit the bill. Kirk Hinrich would be nice if he could re-learn how to shoot.
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 17, 2009 10:42 AM EST reply actions
Would Toronto trade Bosh for Butler + Mike James?
Bosh is still unhappy in Toronto and all signs seem to be pointing to him leaving the Raptors this year via free agency.
Do they risk letting him walk for nothing this summer, or do they pull the trigger and trade for an All-Star in Butler who is still in his prime?
I'd think they'd want draft picks
+ young players + expiring money. Their front court is thing enough that they can’t really afford to lose Bosh and replace him with Butler unless they get a serviceable big man in return.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 17, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
All true
But there will be a number of teams that will be under the cap this summer and able to offer max contracts, so I was really just asking if they are willing to risk letting Bosh walk and getting zero in return?
If the answer is No, and they think they are going to lose Bosh for nothing, wouldn’t they rather trade him now prior to the trade deadline and get something of value in return?
If that is the case: given that Bosh is a free agent and his new team would have no guarantees on being able to re-sign Bosh, then I really don’t think anyone will be willing to risk giving Toronto draft picks + young players + expiring money.
They would be hard pressed to do better than getting an All-Star player in his prime. Even if Caron as a SF does not fit a need for them. At least Caron is signed for another year at a reasonable salary, and they could move him further down the road.
What about Turk?
He can’t really play anywhere other than small forward, and would they really want to spend all that money on a bench player?
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 17, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
Hedo can play other positions and so can Caron
Obviously both Caron and Hedo’s natural position is SF. But Orlando played Hedo at four positions and Caron can play SG.
Toronto plays DeMar DeRozan as their starting SG. Caron is definitely an upgrade even if he’s playing out of position.
Also, the Raptors don’t really emphasize natural positions anyways and they do tend to acquire players who are versatile and can play multiple positions.
This may be out there but...
how about a trade of Caron AND Jamison for Bosh and parts (Marcus Banks works). Crazy, because Bosh could walk, but I think it could be worth it. Our lineups could be really good: BTW+Bosh+MM+NY+Gil or if we need more defense in the lineup, move MM back to the 2 and insert Blatche or MaGuire at the 3.
Toronto could start Caron at the 2 and Jamison at the 4 and they would have players that are signed, as formula0 pointed out, which I think they would like because they hardly ever get interest from big-time free agents.
I am a fan of our “big three” (a couple of years ago anyway) but I think trying to get Bosh and hoping he would resign with us would be worth basically blowing up the forwards. We still have Blatche, who I am not counting on becoming a star, but he could be part of a good lineup in the next couple of years.
solid idea
same deal for stoudemire also makes sense, but bosh is arguably a better move. not sure if phx or tor would be interested tho.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 18, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
on second thought
there’s no way toronto does this. could you imagine a front court of jamison and bargnani? i shudder to think.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 18, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
They would probaly run into one another
as they ran to the same spot behind the three point line calling for the ball
I would definitely do this, but we'd have to take some bad contracts back to convince Toronto
Like, I imagine they’d have us take Hedo back to make it work. Then, I don’t know if it’s worth it.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
All those trades suck...
except the Biedrins one which is unlikely.
Butler is worth more than cap relief. He is certainly worth more than Jason Smith plus bad contracts. Good god, Man!
Maybe
One thing that expiring contracts can do is give the team a chance to sign more players who fit the Flip Saunders offense. I agree that a lot of the deals the team can make probably won’t bring back a ton of talent, but at some point, the team will be presented with two scenarios:
a.) the team will improve, Butler will adjust, everyone will be back and healthy, and there will be less of a need to trade Butler
b.) the team will continue to lose and Butler will continue to play poorly, and the playoffs looks less likely
If a.) happens, the team doesn’t have to do anything. If b.) happens, then it’s also not likely that Butler fits the offense long-term, and the team will need as much flexibility as possible to get the pieces that fit.
Ridiculous Upside, where developing talent and winning are not mutually exclusive.
One more idea
Butler for Luol Deng works. I’m not sure how well Deng would fit into the offense, but he’s a very good defender who can also guard power forwards. The downside is that the Wizards lose some longer-term flexibility; the Bulls might also want someone else thrown into the deal, which likely could include one of Washington’s expiring deals.
Ridiculous Upside, where developing talent and winning are not mutually exclusive.
I like this idea a lot more than some of the others
The only thing Deng lacks is a three point shot, but his positives (size, length, defense, rebounding, not needing the ball in his hands constantly) outweigh the negatives. He’s still not a super efficient scorer, though.
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 17, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
i generally despise hypothetical trade posts
since they are really just way too far fetched and hypothetical generally. and that will probably be the case for this one too, but here’s what i’ve got:
wiz trade: foye, young, mcgee, james, stevenson
bulls trade: salmons, hinrich, taj gibson and either noah or tyrus thomas
why the wiz do this: hinrich can back up gil, salmons can start at 2, and we get two young big men to add to our front court.
why the bulls do this: they get prospects out of young, foye, and mcgee, and they dump a bunch of salary for the next year or two, since they ain’t winning with that roster.
(i had to add so many players to make it work in the trade machine.)
our rotation would then be:
arenas
salmons
butler
jamison
haywood
hinrich
miller
blatche
noah/thomas
gibson
leonsis would have to pay for it though.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 18, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions
That actually makes a good amount of sense on both ends if it's Tyrus, not Noah
I’m not wild about Salmons though – watched too many bricked shitty shots from him this year – but that’s certainly a monster team on paper. Maybe we can flip Salmons elsewhere and roll with a Hinrich/Miller combo at SG.
Maybe you take out Salmons and keep Stevenson.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
funny
i thought you might like this trade because you used to be high on salmons.
i also am perplexed by his crappy play so far this season, but i think it’s an aberration, and so it might be a good time to trade for him.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Dec 18, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think Salmons is really good, but
He can’t be your first option on offense and for the Bulls he almost is (because Rose gets a ton of long open twos for his teammates off penetration and Salmons is taking most of them).
by Manimal Smith on Dec 18, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
I liked him last year
But did more reading and realized last year was a major outlier for him in terms of percentages. Look. I’ve also seen him this year without Ben Gordon and it isn’t pretty.
He’s also another guy who needs shots – his usage rates recently are north of 20 – and he tends to pout when he isn’t starting. Pretty good defender though.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
From a Clipper fan...
Expiring contacts of : Rasual Butler + Craig Smith + Ricky Davis + Mardy Collins + Steve Novak + 1st round pick
for Caron Butler + Deshawn Stevenson + Dominic McGuire (Clippers use a TPE) + Francisco Oberto (Clippers use a TPE)
This trade would save the Wizards $ 8 million in luxury tax fees for this season and shed $ 4 million for the 2010 off season….
That is actually intriguing
because it lets us dump Deshawn AND get a great draft pick back, but …
I think you need to sub out one of the players on the Clipper’s side for some sort of legitimate prospect. Could we sub out Novak for DeAndre Jordan?
by Manimal Smith on Dec 18, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, give us a prospect or a pick back
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Try to snatch Jerryd Bayless from Portland?
I think hie is ridiculously talented
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
What purpose would he serve?
Another 1/2 tweenter.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
This would be in a salary dump type of trade.
In no way am I suggesting he makes us better this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
Bayless may not be the best choice
since he has some of the same problems or short comings Gilbert has.
My only point is, we need some talent back if we’re going to salary dump Caron or any of our other stars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk
I agree with that for sure
I’d rather have Batum than Bayless. Unfortunately, Batum is hurt, but he’s the type of player we need I think.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Another G-State Trade
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yk4t8aa
Ellis, Turiaf, Randolph (9 years Guaranteed) for
Butler, Blatche, Foye (6 years guaranteed)
more of a retooling based on our teams needs.
Wow ... something that makes sense
I thought they might be stupid enough to get rid of him on his own.
Magette is poison – so that kills that deal.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 20, 2009 3:47 AM EST up reply actions
Warriors fan here (2 comments)
1) LOL at the trade proposal. Trade our only center to get EVEN SMALLER
2) Scared… cause your logic on Nellie is true. I could see it happening :(
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