Blow it up?
by Rook6980 on Dec 16, 2009 5:52 PM EST
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I am not yet in the "blow-it-up" and start over camp.... Perhaps I'm overly optimistic, but I still think the trio of Arenas, Butler and Jamison - under the Coaching of Flip Saunders; can turn this ship around and take the team deep into the Playoffs. Once the team is in the Playoffs, anything can happen.
My optimism springs from the fact that the Wizards December and January schedule is full of winnable games.. The rest of their games in December are against the Sacramento Kings , Golden State , Phoenix , Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Minnesota , Memphis , Oklahoma City - all are winnable games (with perhaps the exception of Phoenix). January, the schedule makers were especially kind to the Wizards; giving them an almost unheard of 11 home games versus only 5 away games; and only two of the away games should be tough (at Cleveland and at Atlanta)....
So, you can see why my optimism may have overridden my common sense. I am especially worried that I may have overrated this team, after their recent losses to Charlotte, Toronto, Detroit, Indiana and the debacle in LA against the Clippers.
So - if, and remember I said I'm still not yet in the "blow-it-up" camp, but if the Wizards come through December and continue to stink up the Verizon Center - how can Management possibly make any changes; given the current salary situation...
Well - here are some trades that could free up salary this year, save on the Luxury tax this year, and get the team UNDER the salary cap next year. Impossible? No.... Improbable? Not really; especially if you don't mind giving up quality players for expiring contracts and youngsters.
(Note: Salaries work. Roster spots work- remember, the Wizards have 15 players on the current roster, which precludes 2 for 1 trades).
Caron Butler, Dominic McGuire and Javaris Crittenton to Golden State, for Speedy Claxton, Devean George and Kelenna Azubuike
Why Golden State does this trade: Upgrades their SF position (Butler is better than an injured Azubuike). Plus, there have been rumors that Butler has been mentioned by league executives as potential trade target for the Warriors.
Why Washington does this trade: Salary dump; plus Azubuike is an up and coming SF/SG with good range. He's an excellent defender, a good rebounder and doesn't turn the ball over much. At 25, he would fit in well with a rebuilding team; assuming he comes back strong from surgery to repair a torn patellar tendon in his left knee.
Antawn Jamison to Cleveland, for Zydrunas Ilgauskas.
Why Cleveland does this trade: They've been coveting him for 2 years and Jamison gives the Cavaliers that inside/outside PF that they lack. Shaq and Varejao can adequately cover the Center position - but Jamison makes Cleveland the second best team in the league; just behind the Lakers; almost a shoo-in for the Finals.
Why Washington does this trade: Another salary dump, pure and simple. Ilgauskas comes off the books at the end of the year, and saves the Wizards $28.4 Million (Jamison's salary) over the next two seasons.
Let Ilgauskas walk. Let Haywood walk. Dump Randy Foye (renounce his rights). Let Mike Miller walk. Assuming Azubuike exercises his player option ($3.3 Million), the remaining players under contract would be:
Arenas
Deshawn Stevenson (Stevenson's deal expires after the 2010-2011 season)
Andray Blatche
Nick Young
JaVale McGee
Kelenna Azubuike
The Wizards would have only $32.5 Million in contracts for 2010-2011; enough to sign one max player, or two really good players.... Draft a couple of youngsters in the 2010 Draft (instead of selling their picks). Fill in the rest of the roster using the MLE and League Minimum Player Exceptions, by signing up and coming young players - And they would still be under the Luxury Tax. Now the roster is completely rebuilt full of young players and draft picks.
Hmmm... on second thought, I'm too old for this - I may not have another 3 or 4 years to wait.
This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.
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And then
If you want to get rid of ALL three of the “Big-3”
Arenas, Stevenson and Haywood to Houston for Tracy McGrady, Chase Budinger and Brian Cook…
Saves the Wizards another $16 Million next year (Arenas’ salary) – gets the salaries for 2010-2011 down to about $15 Million – enough to get TWO Max contract Free Agents… PLUS add another mid-level Free Agent – and adds another good young player in Budinger.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
As I said in the other post
That will NEVER happen. Morey and Adleman are scared that playing McGrady would mess up their unselfish team and you expect them to trade away 2 expiring contracts for Arenas and Stephenson’s bad deal just so they can rent Haywood for half a season?
That’s really never happening.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 16, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
That Golden State trade is terrible, but the Cavs trade is realistic
We dump alot of salary but we give away Caron for 30 cents on the dollar for expiring $$ and an OK player who is out for the year. Why we would even contemplate that without including Deshawn in the deal baffles me.
See my Anthony Randolph trade in the thread I created about this. I think that one makes alot more sense.
As I commented in the other thread, I think the Cavs trade could really happen (since it was basically there last year). I think the Wiz could get a draft pick or a young player included in the deal though because Jamison has more value than expiring money even if he is expensive.
IMO, we should blow this up
I don’t think trading All-Stars for salaries to dump and then spending years in the lottery like the Bulls, the Warriors, and any number of other teams in that situation in the past decade, makes sense given the coaching staff we have now and Gilbert’s age and health issues (I’m assuming no other team will touch his contract and thus he’s not going anywhere).
I’m also too old for this myself and don’t think I can stomach the pain of an all-out rebuild.
That said, this team as currently constructed is not getting it done and we need to make a major move and probably one or two smaller moves.
No one except for McGee should be off limits to a possible trade.
We can get much more out of Golden State
All of their players are availible, including Randolph and Curry.
There has been chatter out here locally(SF) all week
That Randolph is up for grabs.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 16, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think Curry
is the one player they WON’T trade.
Pretty much everyone else has a bad-ish contract or has been injured.
I really think my idea of Randolph + Turiaf + Claxton + pick for Butler + Oberto + cutting Boykins is feasible and desirable for both sides (depending on what kind of pick it is though)
by Manimal Smith on Dec 16, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
Anthony randolph is very available right now...
Just read an article on SLAM’s websites saying how Randolph is being heavily shopped, and they said Caron was one of the names mentioned in the trade talks. Here’s the link
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2009/12/welcome-to-the-trade-block-anthony-randolph/
If we are looking to rebuild, this is about the best trade we could make. Randolph has as much upside as any young player in the NBA. So far this is my favorite trade idea out of all the Rebuilding ideas I’ve heard.
I think its actually realistic
That we could get both Kelenna and Randolph in the same trade.
Randolph + Kelenna + Claxton for Butler + Oberto + cutting Boykins works in salary.
The fact that GSW wouldn’t have to take on salary beyond Butler’s to make this deal happen might make it attractive enough to them to pull the trigger.
The only issue I see is that GSW might want to use Randolph as a way to dump bad contracts (like Magette) and therefore may not be willing to include him in this kind of a deal.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 16, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
This is ridiculous
“Blow it up” doesn’t mean “Suicide Bomber”
Jesus Rook.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.
by Kyle Weidie on Dec 16, 2009 9:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Actually – My post was mainly to rebut those that say Arenas is untrade-able… or that Jamison cannot be traded…
ANYONE can be traded, if you’re willing to get back nothing but expiring contracts and unproven players in return. Arenas can be traded for expiring contracts and perhaps a young, unestablished player, draft picks, etc…….
Jamison can be traded to almost any Playoff bound team that needs a stretch-4 (which is almost all of them)…. IF you’re willing to accept back expiring contracts and youngsters, or draft choices… We already know that Cleveland covets Jamison – but San Antonio could use his skills as well… and Miami, if they become disenchanted with Beasley, could certainly use some scoring help for D-Wade….
And the same with Butler..
So for all those that say we’re stuck with the Big-3 because of their contracts – they’re wrong….
And, oh by the way – I think Houston WOULD trade McGrady’s expiring deal for Arenas and Haywood and filler…. It gives them exactly what they lack – a defensive minded Center to fill in for Yao Ming this year… and Arenas could be their SG next to Brooks.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
Oh and one more thing
Unlike most here – I still believe that the Wizards big 3 of Arenas, Butler and Jamison (surrounded with the right kind of support players – like Haywood, Miller, Andray Blatche, McGee, maybe Young, maybe McGuire) – WILL eventually make a deep Playoff run…. Maybe not this year… but almost certainly by next year.
If the Wizards can use their assets to their advantage (James’ expiring contract, Foye’s expiring, perhaps throwing in Young in a trade for something better)… and trade for some good complimentary players – then they will be close.
But, unlike some here, I don’t think that a “partial” re-tooling (ie: trading one of the Big-3 like Butler or Jamison) does anything to get the team closer to a championship. If you’re gonna trade one…. I say nuke the team – trade all the vets for expiring contracts ; keeping only the young guys (Young, McGee, Blatche, McGuire) – get as many young guys with potential in return, load up on draft choices – and start over from scratch; AND pray you are in a position to draft a Franchise caliber Star player.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
I agree 100%
If I were the GM I don’t know when I’d pull the trigger with this team b/c we’re close to winning games, but even if we were winning these games they weren’t impressive looking. Big game tonight…if we lose we’re one step closer…
Arenas would be a fish out of water in Houston
because they put in effort on both sides of the floor. Play team defence stuff like that. He would be oh so confused.
The last time I saw Kenlena he was being carted off on a quasi stretcher/wheel barrow. Please no more busted knee reclamation projects.
Well, in my scenario – we’d be trading one busted knee reclamation project making $17 Million for another busted knee reclamation project making only $3.3 Million….
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
But, our busted knee reclamation project
Is locked up for another $80m over 4 years after this one. Houston would NEVER EVER EVER make that trade. EVER.
Sorry for all the caps, but that’s just a ridiculous notion. There might be a team out there that would trade a massive expiring contract for Gilbert + Brendan, but its not the Rockets. The Rockets value team composition, unselfish play, and defense way too much to tie their future to Gilbert for the next 4 years. Maybe if her were fully back and healthy, but certainly not when its uncertain.
by Manimal Smith on Dec 16, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
plus
they have to be tired of seeing McGrady and Yao go down every year. No way they’re gonna take on another injury prone star. Not that I would be AGAINST this trade, just don’t see it happening. I COULD see them taking Butler and a few spare parts to make the salaries work though.
Yeah
Houston isn’t taking Agent Zero. Not now, when they want to preserve cap flexibility to rebuild the team quick.
The only teams I could maybe see taking on Agent Zero are:
-Charlotte (we get bad contracts coming back)
-Cleveland (if they get really desperate and want Arenas over Mo Williams/Parker)
-Golden State (just because)
-Philadelphia (to reunite Gil with EJ)
That’s it, really.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Character guys
We seem to end up with a lot of headcases, selfish players, and goofballs. I wish we would start looking for character guys, it seems like we focus on talent to the exclusion of other factors such as self-discipline, work ethic, coachability, and maturity.
Gil’s immature, Blatche obviously had partying issues, Nick and Javale spent their first years watching the Jumbotron during timeouts. The NBA season is 82 games long and it makes a huge difference to have guys who have not only the talent to win games but the character to keep themselves focused and motivated all 48 minutes and all 82 games.
Think about how many Wizards players could be characterized as selfish, immature, inconsistent, or lazy. Think about how many Lakers and Celtics players could be similarly characterized.
"selfish, immature, inconsistent, or lazy"
Artest, Bryant, Bynam, Odom
Rondo, Wallace
Did I miss anyone?
by MR on Dec 17, 2009 5:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Before you blow up a team
You have to see if getting rid of the one guy who seems to be the biggest problem ends up fixing things. In other words, you trade Butler, see what happens, and then go from there. When healthy, Miller slides right into the SF spot.
But I don’t like many of the proposed Butler trades I’ve seen suggested here, where Butler is traded for cap room or spare parts. Either trade him for someone close to comparable, for a stud defender who can help change the defensive culture on the team, or for a promising young player.
You start with an honest assessment
Are you one player from being a legit contender?
Answer: no. The Big 3 could average 90 a game and find a way to lose.
Are you likely to get a franchise player in the draft? No.
Is anybody worth keeping? JM, AB
Is any contract untradeable? Yes, no one would want Gil’s contract. AJ’s contract might be hard to peddle given his age. Big problem: GA and AJ will never be on a winning team together given the lack of D.
Best assets to trade (in the order that other teams would rank them): CB, AJ, MM, BH, NY, RF, MJ
Biggest need: a young premeire point guard who can defend.
How can Grunfeld watch this mess any longer without pulling the trigger? If he can’t make a deal, then the new owners know what piece needs to be changed out first.
I know it's spilt milk
but this team is DEFINITELY snake bit. After watching Tyreke Evans last night, I guess I am still in shock that we ended up with such a crap pick in the draft. Outside of Griffin, Evans and Harden were my favorite players in this (supposedly “one player”) draft, and they both look good, or VERY good in Evans’ case. So instead of landing a young superstar to add to our veteran, PLAYOFF roster, we end up with a bunch of pieces that don’t fit and a vastly underachieving team. Why us??
Don't fit?
Have to disagree— I think Mike Miller is a perfect fit for this team. Unfortunately, we haven’t gotten to see him and Antawn on the court together much. And in the couple of games where they did share the court, they were probably both still hampered by their injured shoulders.
I didn't mean
Miller (and Foye), I meant the WHOLE TEAM. I mean, does anyone dispute the fact that we have A LOT of talent on this team? For some reason, all that talent just simply does not fit together.
Sort of
We have very little defensive talent, especially on the perimeter.
Disagree on the crap pick part
Rubio was there for the taking, CJ. He’s out of sight, out of mind right now, but the Wizards had the option of picking a young very good to great player, but decided that they were primed to win a championship this year. Um, yeah….
Sure, Rubio
may have been the PG we need (in 3 years), but Griffin or Evans would’ve been a LOT better. I meant “crap pick” along the lines of us landing in the worst possible spot we could.
I'm fine with blowing it up
I think the only people guy we need to keep is McGee. Gil’s looked good, but I don’t think the pieces fit around him any more. The way I see it, we have two options:
1: Trade Caron and pretty much anyone on the bench other than McGee and I guess Blatche for three point shooters and defensive specialists. Basically figure out a way to acquire, say, Mbah A Moute (who’s basically my pipe dream player now) or a few Jared Jeffries or Dahntay Jones types along with one or two of the Warriors’ shooters. Then we can have basically all of our offense coming from three or four guys rather than the seven or eight people we’ve got on the roster now who are always looking for their shot, and the defense will improve since it really doesn’t benefit the team to play Randy Foye for his defense. The offense will actually improve a bit, too, since Gil will be kicking out to guys looking to shoot threes rather than take two dribbles and knock down a two. Basically, we would improve the harmony on offense and make the defense better.
2. Blow it up, rebuild around McGee. If we trade good players for draft picks and expirers, we’ll be able to rebuild pretty quickly, probably being a 500 team again within two or three years if we can draft well. Even if we’re only acquiring multiple mid-first round picks, we can package them to move up and get genuinely good players (I think one of our biggest problems now is that we’ve got a lot of guys who are decent, but no one truly elite, either in an all around superstar way or at one particular skill like shooting or defending). We could then go out and sign the equivalent of a Joe Johnson in 2012 or maybe even shoot for the moon and go after someone elite.
Really, I think these are our only two options right now. Doing something in between and trading for someone good but not great like Rip Hamilton at the deadline by using Mike James’ contract to “double down” will only make us more mediocre.
by pantslessyoda1 on Dec 17, 2009 10:57 AM EST reply actions
Well - he can push the plunger - or light the fuse - or whatever
but I don’t want him around for the “clean up” afterward….
Not that I don’t think EG has done a bad job – but he’s not the right kind of GM for a young, rebuilding team.
Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......
How much authority does EG have, anyway?
With the ownership situation in flux, who is calling the shots?
Any ESPN Insiders?
Can someone summarize Hollinger’s thoughts on the subject from 12/18?
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