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More Information, Please: A way to improve NBA box-score stats

NBA stats have some definite, huge holes, particularly on the defensive end.  It has always been that way.  But does it have to be?  I say no.

After the jump is an analysis of where the stats are lacking, a proposal of ways to give fans more and better information in looking at individual player performance, and an application of the new stats to the Friday (10/9) Wiz-Mavs game, with an expanded box score.

Star-divide

I recently read Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper.[i] 

Oliver has a lot of interesting things to say, but I found one particularly elegantly simple and thought-provoking:  the "Four Factors" of winning.  The bottom line of it is that there are four ways for a basketball team to win a game:[ii]

(1)        Shooting (efficiently/effectively)

(2)        Turnovers (minimize your own/maximize your opponent's)

(3)        Rebounding (create extra opportunities for your team/end opponent's possessions)[iii]

(4)        Free throws

If you want to read more about them, I highly recommend the book and won't get into them here, because I won't do it justice without either needlessly recasting what Oliver wrote or unfairly block quoting him.  In any event, I think the Four Factors view is very self-evidently true from a team perspective-if you look at how the two teams performed on the Four Factors, it should be apparent what they did that won/lost them the game.  Think about it for a moment.  If you know the results of those four areas, what else do you need to know?[iv]

This should make the Four Factors attractive as ways of evaluating individuals as well, right?  Well, while the modern NBA box score already gives us all the data we need *for teams,* it falls far short at the individual level.

What can we get from the current box score?

Offense is (almost-more on that in a moment) completely captured.  The box score gives everything you need to know about a player's shooting efficiency in the game, and it tells you exactly how many turnovers the player had, how many offensive rebounds the player got and how often they were at the line and how they did when they got there. 

(My only quibble: it seems to me that if we are giving free throws their own element, then, at the individual level, we should also look at how many fouls the player drew.  This becomes important because of the bonus.  To illustrate:  if a team's PG blows by his man four times in the first few minutes of the game, each time drawing a non-shooting foul, that has a huge effect on the team's opportunities at the line for the remainder of the quarter, not to mention how the defense has to play.  At the team level, this doesn't matter.  At the individual level, however, the player has achieved something that works toward the 4th Factor but that does not show up in the box score.  Is this worth expanding the box score for, from a Four Factors perspective?  I'm not sure.)

Defense, however, is a mess.  What does the box score tell you about a player's impact on the 1st Factor, shooting?  Little to nothing.  There is one category, blocks, that tells you how many shots a player made absolutely certain would be missed.[v]  Ok, fine.[vi]  And beyond blocks, what do we even have?  We can look at the other team's box score and speculate as to who was primarily guarding whom and look at how effectively the player shot.  That has very obvious limits, with lack of accurate matchup information, court time information, and defensive switching among the more prominent problems.  I suppose staring at plus/minus long enough might be worth something.  But that's about it.

Turnovers has a somewhat similar problem.  Here, on the defensive side, we are given steals.  Yes, that is, like blocks are to shooting, one way to achieve the end goal.  And steals are a bigger part of turnovers than blocks are of missed shots, so that's good.  But it leaves much else in the dark at the individual level.  What about forced bad passes that go out of bounds?  What about forcing your man all the way to the baseline so he steps out?  What about drawing the charge that prevents the shot and turns the ball over?  We are missing information here.  As with shooting, we can try looking at the opposite side's individual offensive stat, turnovers, and try to attribute things to individuals on defense, but I think this has at least as big an opportunity for error.

Defensive rebounds does its job without complication.  Of course, it still doesn't track many contributions to the team-wide cause.  For example, boxing out a good offensive rebounder and taking him out of the play is valuable for the team (and probably for one particular teammate) without generating credit for the individual player.  But, I think advanced stats can help enough with that problem.  Looking at how the player's team rebounds when the player is on the floor should, in the long term, round out the picture for us enough that bothering with quantifying such help with rebounding probably is not worth the time and space for the common box score.  (Though this might/should be a different story for a team/coach.)

Free throw line.  We do have fouls, which is good, but of course not all fouls are created equal.  Hacking a Shaq five times in a game could will likely hurt the cause a lot less than hacking a Nash the same number of times.  This is something like the opposite of the above discussion regarding offensive FTAM-A (FT Against Made-Attempted).  Maybe we shouldn't only track the player's fouls, but rather should also track the points-on-the-board impact.

Oliver and others have done work to estimate individual players' impacts by analyzing some of the defensive-side-of-the-coin factors.  The estimate, however, is generated using a combination of the flawed individual stats (blocks/steals) and opposing team or opposing player stats.  For example, you might look at how many blocks a player makes and how the opposing team shoots while he is on the floor to extrapolate the impact he's having on shooting.  For some players, there probably a correlation.  But by no means are blocks the only way to reduce the effectiveness of opponents' shooting, nor are steals the only way to generate turnovers.  I haven't seen anything that proves out how well these estimates compare to what is seen by actually tracking the individual player.[vii]  Without such proof, I have a hard time taking the estimates seriously on faith, when it is so easy to think of so many reasons they could be off.

What else could we get?

If we can agree that the Four Factors matter and that box score is deficient, particularly on defense, this begs the question:  can the box score do better?  I think "yes" is a likely enough answer that I've decided to give it a try.

For offense, there's nothing extra, versus the current box score, that really *needs* to be done.  I will, however, track fouls drawn to see whether that paints a picture any different from FTM-A.

For defense, we've identified three areas that need some work, while we can just accept rebounds as-is.

Shooting:  For this, I propose tracking FG Against Made-Attempted (FGAM-A), with a subset of 3PtAM-A.  Unfortunately, stating that is a lot simpler than knowing how to do it.  My plan is, in short, to credit to a player any attempts that take place where that player had responsibility for guarding the offensive player at the moment the shot was taken.  So, if Caron Butler is guarding Shawn Marion with Arenas on Kidd and they switch on a screen, leading to Marion hitting a jumper over Arenas, it counts on Arenas.  But, if, instead, Kidd penetrates and Haywood comes over to help and gets in front of Kidd and Kidd misses the layup, it is a miss and an attempt for Haywood.   

This will require judgment calls (though certainly no more than assists already do).  If the Center comes over to help/double on a driving SF, and both the SF's man and the Center both are in position to contest the shot, who gets the credit/blame?  That will necessarily be a judgment call.  Some ground rules, though:  (1) when a player gets blown-by or otherwise loses the guy he's responsible for without a teammate having a reasonable opportunity to take over, the play belongs to the first player; (2) if a defender clearly had responsibility to take over the defense of an offensive player, but doesn't get there because he just doesn't bother trying to, it counts against him (for example, if you get lost on the switch on a pick and roll and your man scores without someone else getting into position, it is on you; if you go weak under the screen and the ball-handler shoots, that's also on you); (3) not every shot will get allocated to a defender, for example end-of-half heaves and undefended leak-outs will both be "team" FGAA, as would a 3-pt attempt where the defensive help/rotation just gets beat and the would-be defender has no reasonable chance to get to the shot; (4) offensive put-backs will generally be counted on the defender who was responsible for blocking that player out.  That's a start.  I expect this approach will trigger some questions, and I've tried to anticipate them below, in their own section. 

Turnovers:  This should be easy.  Instead of only counting steals, also tally other actions that directly cause a change of possession without a shot/free throw taking place.  This would include taking offensive fouls, forcing bad passes that are picked off, forcing double dribbles or travels and forcing offensive players out of bounds. (Taking a charge would show up in both the fouls drawn and the turnovers created categories.)

Free Throws:  As was already touched on, while we're already given the raw number of fouls, we can also track the FTM-A outcomes of the fouls.

And that's it.  Five "new" stats to track in-game to fill out the Four Factors in looking at individual players:  Fouls Drawn, FGAM-A, 3PtAM-A, TOC (turnovers created), and FTAA-M.[viii]

Applying the expanded "Four Factors" to a game performance

Here, then, is the "expanded" Wizards' box score for Friday night's Wizards-Dallas game.[ix]

Min

FGM-A

3ptM-A

OReb

Turn

FR

FTM-A

FGAM-A

3ptAM-A

DReb

TurnC

F

FTAM-A

Arenas

21

6-6

0-0

0

5

2

0-1

5-10

3-8

0

0

4

0-2

Stevenson

18

1-2

1-2

0

1

1

2-2

2-6

1-2

2

0

0

2-2

Butler

23

6-10

1-3

2

3

3

6-6

6-8

0-0

3

2

1

3-3

Jamison

28

7-16

2-6

1

0

3

3-5

6-11

0-2

4

1

3

1-1

Haywood

8

2-2

0-0

2

0

4

0-6

0-0

0-0

3

1

1

1-1

Young

28

4-9

1-3

0

1

1

0-2

5-9

3-6

2

0

1

2-2

Blatche

26

6-11

0-0

1

2

6

5-5

3-8

0-1

8

3

5

7-8

McGee

20

5-5

0-0

0

0

4

4-7

5-10

0-2

3

1

2

1-3

Miller

19

1-4

0-3

3

2

4

4-6

2-4

0-1

4

0

3

0-1

Foye

19

1-7

0-2

0

0

0

0-0

0-3

0-1

3

1

4

6-6

Oberto

13

1-3

0-0

1

1

0

0-0

0-0

0-0

2

0

4

7-8

James

9

1-3

0-1

0-

0

0

0-0

0-1

0-1

0

0

1

0-0

McGuire

6

1-1

0-0

2

2

1

2-2

0-1

0-0

1

1

2

4-4

(I welcome feedback on the best way to present the information.  You'll see I put all Offense together and then all Defense together.  Maybe it would be better to present Scoring O/Scoring D right next to each other for easier comparison? Etc.)

Some individual player Four Factor game notes:

  • Haywood got off to a great start; it would have been spectacular if he'd hit any FTs
  • As it was, the player of the game was probably Blatche.  While Blatche committed too many fouls, he also generated even more and created some turnovers.
  • The Big 3 got a lot of FGAA.  The Mavs went at Butler and Jamison quite a bit.  Marion particularly caught Butler out of position too many times.  Arenas's FGAA is so high because spent most of the game daring his man to shoot.  Sometimes that worked out, too often it didn't.  He allowed enough 3s to cancel out his own, efficient 6-6 on FG.  In total, while they put up their offensive numbers, they gave up enough on defense to balance out their scoring production. 
  • In this game, Arenas had a big net-turnover problem.  He lost 5 and got none.  Butler managed to balance his possessions out some, while Jamison brings nothing and takes nothing away on that front.
  • McGee put up one of the highest rates of FGAA/minute on the team.  It was an interesting mix of being super-active to get involved in more plays and help teammates (which is good), while also losing his responsibility enough to allow an easy attempt (which is bad).  The time he was on the floor in match-up zone really magnified both of these issues.  The McGee giveth and the McGee taketh away on defense.
  • It would be interesting to see what McGuire would have done by these measures in more minutes.

Also, here's the Mavs:

Min

FGM-A

3ptA-

OReb

Turn

FR

FTM-A

FGAM-A

3ptAM-A

DReb

TurnC

F

FTAM-A

Kidd

25

5-9

4-7

1

3

1

1-1

7-10

0-1

4

0

1

0-1

Carroll

15

1-7

0-4

1

0

0

0-0

1-2

0-1

0

0

3

4-6

Gooden

19

2-6

0-0

3

0

2

4-4

7-9

0-0

1

0

3

1-5

Marion

30

11-15

0-1

1

0

3

4-4

7-9

1-2

4

1

1

3-3

Nowitzki

24

5-9

0-1

0

2

5

4-4

1-5

0-2

4

3

2

2-3

Barea

24

1-6

1-5

0

0

5

5-6

2-10

0-2

1

3

1

1-1

Beaubois

20

4-8

2-4

0

1

3

4-6

2-4

1-3

0

3

4

3-6

Dampier

19

1-2

0-0

1

0

2

1-4

1-4

0-0

3

0

1

0-2

Ross

19

1-4

0-2

1

1

3

4-4

4-6

1-2

2

1

4

3-3

Humphries

16

4-9

0-1

0

2

5

7-7

5-7

1-1

7

2

6

7-9

Terry

16

3-5

1-1

0

1

1

2-2

1-3

0-1

2

0

1

0-0

Singleton

7

0-1

0-1

0

1

0

0-0

2-2

0-0

2

0

1

1-2

Voskuhl

4

1-2

0-1

0

1

1

1-1

1-1

0-0

1

0

1

1-1

Mavs notes:

  • Yahoo's player of the game was Marion.  He was definitely not the 4F player of the game -- he allowed way, way too many FGAA-M, mostly by losing Butler or Butler just plain beating him.  Marion also got beat on some switches, etc.
  • Nowitzki was impressive.  The 5 drawn fouls and 3 forced turnovers were legit, and his 5 shots allowed with only 1 make were largely forcing Jamison to shoot over him.
  • Beaubois generated turnovers.  Interesting prospect.  He and Beaubois combined for +5 turnover margin, which seems quite impressive.
  • Barea is a very irritating defender and it shows up well in the numbers.  He killed Foye in their matchup.
  • Humphries got praise from the announcers and did do some visibly good things, but his defense (18 points allowed on 7 shots and 6 fouls) suggests he was a net minus for the Mavs.  That notion fits well with the fact that he was on the floor for a couple of the Wizards' runs.
  • Kidd couldn't do much to slow Arenas in the third quarter.  But, he made enough 3s to balance that out.  That's right, Kidd the defensive liability makes up for it with outside shooting--for one preseason game, anyway.
  • Gooden did a lot to keep the Wiz in the game.  If Haywood had made his FTs, his line would be a complete train wreck.

One note about the box scores:  for this game, I did not do a "team" line, so totalling up the FGAM-A columns won't match the official box score total.  In particular, the Mavs had some 3-pt attempts off of quick ball movement and a fast break that were not counted against a particular Wiz defender.  I expect that the "team" category will be a good measure of team-wide, systemic breakdowns.

Some more about FGAA/M

Here is some defense/explanation of this approach, in the form of Q&As:

Q1:      Isn't it arbitrary to give equal credit for every "forced" miss?  Isn't a complete rejection different in nature from just being lucky that a player has an open look rim out?

A1:       That is somewhat of a fair point.  On the other hand, this is something we live with quite happily on the offensive side of the ball.  If the defense rotates away from Shaq for a moment and allows him to receive the ball cleanly with no one between him and the basket and he drops in a bucket that 99% of the league could make 99% of the time, it counts exactly the same as if Kobe pulled off the most stunning, double-team beating, hand in face defeating move possible.  We're ok with that.  We understand the context different players score in.  I think we can do the same with defense.

Q2:      Isn't it possible that different positions will be difficult to compare?

A2:       Yes.  In particular, I'm expecting Centers to pose a challenge versus other players because they (it seems) should have larger numbers in this area than other players, due to their last-line-of-defense and help responsibilities.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't collect the information, only that, again, context matters.

Q3:      As with the Center problem, won't some players potentially look *worse* because they are good?  For example, they take over too much responsibility due to getting over to help teammates who have been beaten?

A3:       It seems there are two ways a player could end up with a lot of FGAA and a relatively low FGAM (FG against missed).  One is to be a bad defender who just gets abused.  The other is to be an active defender who is frequently able to try to recover for a teammate's mistake, only to be ultimately unable to stop the make.  I suspect that if we really track this category, it will be apparent which players are which, but that is speculation on my part and this issue *could* pose a problem.  Still, it is possible that something like "range factor" from MLB defense could emerge.  One way to do this would be to keep separate categories for what players do in their head-to-head matchup versus the "at the time of the shot" approach I've set out.  That way, if we find that a player's matchup has done little, but the player still has a problematic FGAA/M stat, we can attribute it to their "range" in helping teammates.  I think, however, that's more than I will take on for now.

Q4:      Teams defend as a whole.  Passing out individual credit could be very misleading.

A4:       I'll again point to what we already accept on the offensive end.  Players help each other get into better position to score all of the time, in a host of ways, but we only keep one flawed, limited, subjective stat to account for it:  assists.[x]  Nevertheless, we still all think FGA/M is meaningful.  This is ok on offense and I don't see why defense should be different. 

Here is another way of looking at it: consider football defense, with its tackles and sacks.  These are both understood as individual achievements, while we also accept that to some degree they are products of the system and personnel around a player.  Ray Lewis playing middle linebacker in a 4-3 alignment with good defensive lineman in front of him will get a lot of tackles.  Some will happen because the guys in front of him are occupying would-be blockers and channeling the ball carrier to Ray.  Some of it will happen because Ray is Ray.  That's ok.  We look at "tackles" and can understand that.  Again, it is a matter of having a context for the stat.  I think FGAA/M can work much the same way.  Just like tackles come in the context of the team's defensive achievements (scoring and yards), the FGAM-A can too.


 

[i] If you have even a passing interest in basketball stats, particularly team stats, I'd recommend it. A very nice thing about it is that much of it should be appealing to those who might be open to quantification/analysis but who (understandably) remain skeptical of the win shares/PER/perfect player evaluation worldview.

[ii] The Secret Weapon had a nice "four factors" analysis of the Wizards' first preseason game. 

[iii] Another very simple yet very interesting idea in the book is that Offensive and Defensive rebounding are two different skills/abilities.  One is a part of a team's offensive game, the other is part of a team's defensive game.  So, "rebounding" is not its own phase of the game in the way that "special teams" are in football-there isn't offense, defense, and rebounding.  Rather, there is offense, where rebounding is a way to win, and defense, where rebounding is a way to win.  I confess that while I've been interested in offensive rebounds and total rebounds, I never thought to view offensive and defensive separately.  I think if you just watch the game with that idea in mind, or think about your own experiences playing, it quickly starts to make a lot of sense.

[iv] The answer to the rhetorical question is, of course, that even if we accept as given the importance of the Four Factors for explaining the how of course you still need to know the WHY of the factors, you stat-head moron.  Yes, I completely agree.  But:  that's too much for here and now and we need to start somewhere.

[v] Something I really don't get is the recent addition of "BA" to the full box score.  I'm sorry, but I have an incredibly hard time caring who had how many of their shots blocked.  Am I alone in this?  The shots were missed, we get it, but we already have that information in another category, and does it really matter how?  (If so, shouldn't we first make "idiotic 20-ft fadeaways" their own category?)  This is somehow a bigger priority than learning just how many fouls a player drew or various other potentially useful pieces of information?

[vi] Of course it doesn't punish a player for biting on a pump fake to go for the block, only to leave his man with a gimme. 

[vii] It strikes me as quite possible that statistically-minded teams have perhaps achieved some good things along these lines without taking it public, but that obviously doesn't do fans any good.

[viii] Tracking these new "direct" stats will also open up the possibility of creating other new stats.  One possibility I'm particularly interested in is net possessions created/lost (akin to football giveaways/takeaways).

[ix] I know I can't do this for every game, or even as many as I'd like.  If, however, folks would like to join in, we can, as a community effort, try to track the whole season and give ourselves a whole new complete menu of Wiz numbers for kicking around.  If you are interested, please let me know in the comments and, if there is sufficient interest, I'll figure out how to put something together.  We still won't, of course, be able to compare across the league, but on a team as deep, diverse, and interesting as this year's Wizards squad, this could still be a very interesting exercise.

The tracking of the game was harder than I expected in one way:  it takes a lot of attention (or a different sort than I am used to paying) to tell what defensive player actually did what on a given play.  There is no way I could have done this without a dvr and slo-mo that I could control.  It took a lot of slowing and re-watching plays to pick out exactly who was the defender at the time of the shot or who actually got the deflection.  That said, my biggest surprise was actually that I did not have to make nearly as many judgment calls as I expected. 

The tracking was itself an interesting experience and forced me to watch the game in a way I never had before.

[x] Tracking defensive "assists" might be a fun option. 

3 recs  |  Comment 42 comments |

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Wow – great analysis and add-on stats. I would love to see it adopted and used widely. IMO, your added stats help to quantify ‘chemistry’ that so many teams seek to achieve. It’s one thing for a player to get on the floor and put up numbers (i.e. Humphries, using last game) and another thing to explain ‘yeah he put up numbers, but actually hurt the team while on the floor.’ It definately explains players ‘intangibles’ as well in showing a more well-rounded game.

by bigity b on Oct 14, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Good Work

Congratulations on getting into defensive tracking. I learned a lot when I undertook similar tracking efforts in previous seasons.

One question I have — It looks like Haywood didn’t defend a single shot, but that McGee faced 10. What explains this discrepancy? They’re both centers and they presumably have similar defensive responsibilities yet the numbers are radcially different.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 14, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Haywood only played 8 minutes, not 23.

bwoods must have just mixed something up. This was the game where he got injured…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk

by hibachi on Oct 14, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It was Butler that played 23 when he’s listed as only playing 8. I’ll fix it.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 14, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those in copying some of the Yahoo box score over. But, That’s right on Haywood. The Mavs went inside very little when Haywood was on the floor in the first quarter, and he never completely took over the defense on any drives. I think I remember one play where Marion was driving on Butler, but Butler stayed in front of Marion the whole way and Haywood was screened out. Similarly Jamison had primary responsibility for a couple where Haywood was doubling, but didn’t take over. It was Haywood in particular that made me think of defensive “assists” as an idea, though I think that would be even harder to judge than offensive assists are.

In contrast, McGee several times completely took over defense of driving perimeter players from teammates who just plain got beat, and the Mavs also went to Humphries and at McGee several times. McGee seems both like someone with a lot of “range” AND a big target at this point.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 14, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barea a good defender?

I’d obviously need more stats but that’s interesting. I always thought he had a bad reputation because of his size…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laydODN6xVk

by hibachi on Oct 14, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looking at 82games

His opposing player PER at PG was 15 (league avg) and at SG was 13.4. His opposing player eFG% were 45% and 47%, which are good, and his DRat were 99 and 96.

Of course, against the Wiz his defensive #s came mostly against Foye, and the same probably goes for his defensive stats last season—mostly against backups. So, if you put him on an Arenas, maybe he isn’t good (or maybe he is), but against his counterparts he seems to fare well.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 14, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fantastic Post

This is great stuff. i wonder how teams that play really sound team defense stack up with this methodology.
The only stat I would add to all of this is +/- for each player.

Jose

by joseroig on Oct 14, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

FGAM-A would be an extremely subjective stat that’s going to be a headache to track, much more so then assists. I do agree with the TOs forced as steals are attributed to the guy who picks up the ball, not necessarily the guy who poked it away.

by Fundefined on Oct 14, 2009 8:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great idea, and potentially workable too

I have a few questions and an idea…
1. Can you objectively define who is responsible for a shot/score? There’s definitely going to be trouble idenfitying missed assignments. (e.g., What if McGee thinks the team is playing one defense and Blatche thinks another, so neither rotates…is that just a team score? What if McGee was the one that was wrong, but Blatche tries to defend from lousy position and the basket is made? Does McGee get off scott free and Blatche get a FGMA for his efforts?) Anyway, a clear definition is needed to take as much subjectivity ouf of this as possible — there’s going to be limitations, but it’s better if we know what they are. Who’s responsible when player 1 loses his guy, and player 2 makes an attempt to prevent the score from a disadvantageous position? What if Player 2 succeeds? It seems like you’re saying Player 2 is the guy here — any more specifics on where to draw the line?

2. In addition to the help issue, can anything be done about who the defender is defending? On any given night, Butler might take the best offensive perimeter player while Gilbert will take the weakest — with this system, there’s no way to get credit for holding Lebron/Kobe/Wade to a good game — whoever guards Delonte West would always look like a better defender than the guy who guards Lebron. Defensive stoppers will have this situation every game.

3. How do you account for a player who gets penetrated on repeatedly, requiring help, which leads to made baskets (assisted) as defenders help and others try to rotate? What if there’s a second pass after good initial help? A wide open 3 in the corner may be the PG’s fault, but he’s nowhere near it. This is huge for defending “true” point guards. Getting broken down doesn’t always lead to your man scoring, but it likely helps someone else score. I know it doesn’t fit into the Four Factors, but I wouldn’t mind seeing Penetrated On (or something less pornographic) to account for this.

by steadyhand on Oct 14, 2009 9:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

  1. is one of the things that bugs me the most. I agree that tracking how frequently a player gets beaten would be a good and useful thing to know. I agree that it would probably need to be its own thing—I don’t see a good way to bake it into any of the other categories. I don’t want to just keep responsibility at the player who was beaten.

also on #3 and something that relates a little to #1—One thought I have is that keeping track of FGAM-A would produce a set of data that you could then compare to the 82games type of PER against and to what DRat and +/- say. If a player has relatively few FG attempted against, but his team is getting killed while he is on the floor, it is probably safe to assume he isn’t keeping his man under wraps as much as he is supposed to, etc.

on #2—this may sound a little like I’m punting, but I’m pretty much ok with it being that way, since it is, I think, just the mirror image of what we do on offense. Kobe’s shooting stats don’t get adjusted for whether he’s taking on an at-his-peak Bowen as opposed to a generic fill-in shoot first SG. I’d also tie this back to the previous paragraph—FGAM-A could be compared to the team defensive stats to determine what impact the specific performance had on the team while the player was on the floor.

  1. needs a longer response. I’ll be back with that later.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More explanation on #1

Under the approach I’m suggesting, missed assignments could definitely lead to unfairly letting some players off the hook while punishing others. (Of course, on offense we don’t much worry about who did the work of creating the basket. Assists are some help on this, but not much.) I think guessing at who was really supposed to be where at what time, given the particular defensive scheme, would require too much technical expertise and become too subjective, and that it is better to stay with what actually happened.

Again, the general rule would be: An attempt is allocated to the defensive player (D) who is in the act of guarding an offensive player (O) at the time of the O’s shot. If no D is in the act of guarding the O at the time of the shot, then there are two possibilities: (1) O was unguarded because the defense had helped off of the player and not recovered to get anyone there. In that case, it is allocated to the team. (2) the D either was just playing too far off, or had been beaten with no further help arriving, etc., in which case it gets allocated to the last D.

So, in these examples:

"McGee thinks the team is playing one defense and Blatche thinks another, so neither rotates"—Yes, that is a "team" score.

"McGee was the one that was wrong, but Blatche tries to defend from lousy position and the basket is made."—This can be a judgment call. If Blatche moves over and is in lousy position, but clearly gets there in time to defend the shot, it is on him. If he is slow getting over and never is in the play, it is on the team. The bright-line rule I’ve tried to apply on the interior (it doesn’t work on the perimeter) is—Did the D have the opportunity to establish position on the O such that he could have drawn a foul if the O had moved further into him and is no one else closer.

So, to extend the example (and this happened some in the 10/14 preseason game, though the names here are just to illustrate): McGee and Blatche are on the floor together, both guarding players in the post. The two offensive players switch sides of the lane and both McGee and Blatche linger under the basket watching the ball as a perimeter player penetrates to Blatche’s side, with the perimeter player’s defender (let’s use Butler) running alongside. Running through some possibilities:

(1) The perimeter player takes a running shot. It is on Butler.
(2) Blatche steps out to help, but doesn’t quite get there. It is still on Butler.
(3) Blatche steps out to help and establishes position in front of the perimeter player with Butler still alongside the perimeter player. It is now on Blatche.
(4) Through (3), but instead the perimeter player passes to Blatche’s man, who dunks uncontested. This is on the team. (I’ve seen surprisingly little of this in the two games I’ve now tracked.)
(5) Through (4), but, instead of uncontested, McGee comes off of his man but gets stuck under the basket. On the team.
(6) Instead of (5), McGee actually gets between Blatche’s man and the basket. It is on McGee. (This sort of thing has been happening A LOT. McGee is very active, maybe even over-active, on this sort of help.)
(7) Go back to (2), but the perimeter player dishes to Blatche’s man, who dunks. This goes to Blatche, because he never actually moved off of his player to another offensive player.
(8) Same as (7), except McGee, without getting into any sort of position, takes a swing at it and whiffs. Still on Blatche.
(9) Same as (7), except McGee actually manages to block the dunk. McGee gets the attempt.

Is all of this "fair"? Of course not. But I think it is relatively clear and workable and provides a decent counterpart to the offensive side of things. Using this approach, there have been very, very few plays that were difficult to allocate. And, I think the unfairness to Blatche in your example (he was trying to bail someone else out when it wasn’t his responsibility) is somewhat balanced by being able to look at whether a player generates an unusually large volume of FGAAttempted versus the FGAttempts by his counterpart player. If Blatche is matched up with Varejao, and Varejao finished with 2-4 from the field, while Blatche has defended 9-15 against, then we know that Blatche has a lot of "range" and is assuming a lot of responsibility for the team’s defense. If we had league-wide data for this, then we could compare Blatche’s #s to see how he compares to his counterparts on other teams. Is Blatche getting to more shots? Is he allowing more of them? Etc.

That’s a lot of words on interior play, but the hardest judgment call, with the most room for subjectivity, is actually in rapid perimeter ball movement (or penetrate and kick-out), leading to a perimeter player taking a jump shot while his would-be D is running out on him. Here, I think the judgment is: Was the D legitimately helping off of the O, as opposed to just standing several feet away and not paying attention? If he was legitimately helping off of the O, then did he or could he have gotten back to the O to actually challenge the shot? There is a thin line here on judging whether the D recovered enough to re-take individual responsibility.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

(1) O was unguarded because the defense had helped off of the player and not recovered to get anyone there. In that case, it is allocated to the team.

That’s definitely where the tracking for last night’s game varied between yours and mine….

I charged the closest player…. For instance, Mike Miller had several times where he helped inside, but couldn’t get back to the 3-point line to properly contest the shot. I think in those cases, you charged those attempts and points to the “team”, whereas I charged them to Miller.

In the future, I’ll use your method….

(4) Through (3), but instead the perimeter player passes to Blatche’s man, who dunks uncontested. This is on the team. (I’ve seen surprisingly little of this in the two games I’ve now tracked.)

We saw this last night in a semi-fast break situation…. Butler was the only one back and in position. The opposing guard passed to Ilgauskas at the right of the lane (by the way, McGee was still not over the half-court line – don’t ask me how one of the fastest big men in the League can lose a foot race to Ilgauskas); Butler went to challenge Ilgauskas, but he passed to a cutting player for a layup/dunk. Again, closest player was Butler…. and I charged the attempt and bucket to Butler.
But under your rules, this should be a “team” defensive lapse.

By the way – it’s WAY easier that it sounds…. bwoods and I both tracked last night’s game – and with the exception of some minor differences that can be overcome with set rules, we both had essentially the same stats…..

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so bwoods - how about these?

Some other notes on “Team” category.

Traveling by the opponent should be considered a “team” caused Turn Over

Likewise, if the team is charged for Illegal Defense – the resulting FT should be listed under “Team”, unless it can be clearly established that the call was on X player.

If an opponent throws the ball out of bounds resulting in a Turn Over – and that TO was the result of pressure from the Defender; that Defender should get credit for the caused TO. If the TO is caused by a double team, or if the opponent simply throws the pass to no one in particular (as happened twice in last night’s game) – those caused TO’s should be credited to the “Team”.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re traveling—there was one Cavs travel last night (sorry, don’t remember who) that I allocated to an individual defender, because the Cav was being pressured and made a mistake. Similarly, too many steps on a post up where the D is making the O work for position would be a forced turnover. A simple, stupid carry or double dribble wouldn’t be allocated though.

I just gave the illegal defenses to the team, partly because I couldn’t tell what the officials were actually doing. I suppose, ideally, this would get charged to the individual player who caused the T.

Agree on your turnover paragraph. Although, while I haven’t done it, I think it could make sense to give “half” turnovers created in the double-team situation (like two people tackling the same player in football).

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought about the “half” turn over thing…. but then, where do you stop doing the “half” thing? What happens when LeBron is triple-teamed?

I think it’s just easier to give the TO to the “team” in a double team situation that causes a TO

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but – again… I’m willing to track using whatever rules everyone can agree on…..

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It really is easier

The Mavs game took me a little longer than the real length of the game. But, with a little practice, last night took me under 2 hours. And, more importantly, I truly am finding that there are fewer judgment calls than I was worried there would be.

Really, my biggest problem last night (since I didn’t have internet during the game) was figuring out who some of the fouls were actually called on.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m of the opinion that we only track the Wizards….. for the year…

I can’t see any advantage to tracking for both teams…

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve done both teams for both games, wanting to get the hang of it better and see who is doing damage.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome.

Amazing post. I’d love to be able to help out with tracking, as I’d love to see this sort of analysis on a regular basis, but I don’t have a DVR here at school. Plus, I don’t think I’d have the confidence to be able to make judgments about some of the more subjective things.

But thanks a lot, bwoods, this looks great and I look forward to refinements and updates.

by dnk on Oct 15, 2009 1:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I tracked the five new stats for last night’s game…. and here’s what I think:

1. Can you objectively define who is responsible for a shot/score?

I think you can – at least as objectively as assists and in some cases steals…. as long as there are well defined rules; especially for switches, and for “blow by’s” (ie: matador defense)…

There’s definitely going to be trouble idenfitying missed assignments. (e.g., What if McGee thinks the team is playing one defense and Blatche thinks another, so neither rotates…is that just a team score?

Here’s how I handled that situation last night. On a pick-and-roll play, Arenas got caught on the pick, while McGee tried to “show” – however, McGee left too much room, and the guard just split the seam and went in for a lay up (contested by Blatche). Because I considered it a “switch” situation, and he allowed the “blow by”, I counted those points against McGee.

What if McGee was the one that was wrong, but Blatche tries to defend from lousy position and the basket is made? Does McGee get off scott free and Blatche get a FGMA for his efforts?

See above

Who’s responsible when player 1 loses his guy, and player 2 makes an attempt to prevent the score from a disadvantageous position?

If there’s a score, I put the blame (and the points) on player 1…

What if Player 2 succeeds? It seems like you’re saying Player 2 is the guy here — any more specifics on where to draw the line?

If player 2 succeeds, I give him the “stop”…. (ie: 1 shot attempt, 0 shots made). Example in last night’s game; Arenas allowed penetration into the lane, Blatche came off his man and altered the shot. Blatche got 1 shot attempt against, 0 shots made…. (Unfortunately, on the exact same play, Blatche’s man got the Offensive Rebound and scored: giving Andray 1 shot attempt against and 1 shot made – – – – stuff happens )

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 10:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

On the first example, I handled it the same way, with the additional explanation that: (1) it was pretty obvious that McGee was supposed to be there and (2) Blatche “contested” the shot but never had any position to stop the ball.

And I handled the last example the same way. Twice last night McGee helped and was credited with a missed FGA then turned around to see that Igauskas had gotten the offensive rebound and tried to stop Ilgauskas, only to allow the bucket. So, on those two possessions, he generates a 2-4. Note that if the play had happened faster and McGee hadn’t had time to react to Ilgauskas (as happened on another offensive rebound) that wouldn’t be on McGee-it would be either on the player who failed to adequately box Ilg out, or on the team..

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing that really comes through with tracking those five “new” stats – is that you can get a feel for who is playing pretty good defensively, and who sucks…. it’s the middle (as usual) that is fuzzy….

Last night, JaVale McGee was the worst Wizard’s defender – - – by a large margin.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I’d nominate Butler for that honor. He had only 1 turnover created and allowed 5-7 from the field, including 2-3 from 3Pt, and 2-3 at the line. Very different from McGee, I don’t recall Butler having his numbers hurt at all by trying and failing to help teammates.

Butler has been my biggest disappointment in the two games I’ve done. He is constantly two steps off of his man (drifting, not helping) when the ball arrives to his man, allowing a lot of time to get off a jump shot and a lot of room to put the ball on the floor.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes – Butler had a terrible game defensively…..

I gave the “stinky-D game ball” to JaVale because he went for literally EVERY pump fake and EVERY shot. Had a really stupid goal-tending call. Was constantly out of position trying to block everything in sight. Was caught a number of times too deep Offensively, and his man (Shaq and Ilgauskas) , probably the two slowest players in the League, beat him down court…. (I remember Butler on two separate occasions picking up Shaq and Ilgauskas because McGee was not there yet…. once getting a foul for his trouble)…

The stats showed him giving up 18 points (27 per 36 minutes) – and that, along with my other observations, lead me to believe that McGee was the worst Wizard’s defender last night.

Bullets Forever - where "Dagger ! " happens......

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s critical to adjust the scorekeeping to allow for split credit/blame on plays. Defense is primarily about teamwork and assigning 100% responsibility for a play a) doesn’t describe reality on many plays, and b) removes data that’s important. On the screen/roll play you describe (Arenas gets hung on the screen and McGee gets beat), it’s important to know that Arenas had responsibility on that play too.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 15, 2009 11:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree, but....

I have two concerns with starting to pass out partial credit/blame.

(1) I’m worried that in other areas, particularly defending dribble-drives, it will actually demand that more judgment calls be made. If the perimeter player is partly beat but still on his man and double team help is in the play but not fully in position, do you split up the credit? Under what I’m suggesting, it would be on the original defender unless someone fully takes the baton.

(2) That isn’t how we do it on offense. NBA offense has a lot more teamwork involved than it is often credited with. And yet, no matter how much help a player gets in scoring a basket, he still gets 100% credit for the basket. Now, really, I suppose my problem is more with how the offensive stat works, but, I think it is impossible to change and I think there is some value to having the defensive side try to mirror the offensive as closely as possible.

But, I’m interested in your thoughts on that.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: #1 — I tracked most of 3 seasons dividing credit in the manner I described and while there were judgement calls, it yielded robust information. On a dribble-drive play, for example, it’s important to know who the primary defender was (who didn’t contain the penetration) and who the help defender was — even if the help didn’t “fully take the baton.” That’s because most NBA defenses are designed for bigs to help.

Because it’s so difficult to prevent penetration, most teams use “force rules,” under which onball defenders are supposed to direct penetration to certain locations (usually sideline and baseline) where a teammate (preferably a big one) helps. So, a help defender failing to rotate in time is critical information. In other words, the system you’re using would put full credit/blame on the primary defender (using your example) even though he was likely supposed to have help.

“Help” doesn’t mean that the big man is doing anything extra. Helping is a big part of his job. Any tracking that doesn’t capture “help” defense is missing some really important information.

  1. — I don’t think this is a good argument. :) The currently-collected box score stats do a decent job of providing useful information about offensive play. It’s not everything, but it captures most of the useful contributions a player can make (obvious missing information: screens, off-ball action that delays help, swing passes, fouls drawn).

While I like the thought of mirroring the current box score, you can still do it when presenting the data. I tracked a huge amount of data including play types, deflections, ball movement through court locations, forced turnovers, steal attempts, offensive fouls drawn, and probably some other stuff. I used all that extra information in my own analysis, and when I was writing reports for clients. But I also presented the data in a defensive box score much like what you’re doing. If Haywood was involved in defending 10.5 FGA, I’d just put it in there, even if half of them were “partial credit” plays.

I’m NOT suggesting that you collect ALL that extra data. It was a TON of work. But I do think splitting credit is pretty important to do.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 15, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Whoops

That 1. should have been a 2. Not sure how that happened.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 15, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm warming to the half-credit thing

But still struggling with how to apply it in certain scenarios. Could you go through the list of 9 scenarios in my comment above and say how you would allocate each of those?

Also, let’s say there is a pick and roll that gets botched, allowing a dribble penetration that help only sort-of gets to? Who gets that one?

And, if the help defender on a play is completely successful (e.g., gets a clean block of the shot), does the perimeter defender still get half the credit for it?

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure I’m picturing the plays properly (video would be helpful), but here goes…

So, to extend the example (and this happened some in the 10/14 preseason game, though the names here are just to illustrate): McGee and Blatche are on the floor together, both guarding players in the post. The two offensive players switch sides of the lane and both McGee and Blatche linger under the basket watching the ball as a perimeter player penetrates to Blatche’s side, with the perimeter player’s defender (let’s use Butler) running alongside. Running through some possibilities:

(1) The perimeter player takes a running shot. It is on Butler.

So, Butler’s man penetrates and neither McGee nor Blatche rotate. In this case, it could conceivably be 100% Butler if neither big had a chance to rotate. If they both brain fart and wait for the other guy to help, then I’d assign “help” to whichever one was closest. Because it’s their job to help.

(2) Blatche steps out to help, but doesn’t quite get there. It is still on Butler.

Split credit between Butler (primary) and Blatche (help).

(3) Blatche steps out to help and establishes position in front of the perimeter player with Butler still alongside the perimeter player. It is now on Blatche.

Split — Butler primary, Blatche secondary.

(4) Through (3), but instead the perimeter player passes to Blatche’s man, who dunks uncontested. This is on the team. (I’ve seen surprisingly little of this in the two games I’ve now tracked.)

This one depends because there’s some other stuff that should be happening. When Blatche left his man to help on Butler’s, McGee (or someone else) should have slid over and picked up Blatche’s man.

But, the way I’m visualizing the play, I’d record it as Blatche as primary with a notation that he left his man in help D, and that Butler permitted penetration. Depending on what McGee does, he could end up with a share for helping/failing to help. I would not record this as “team.”

The further I went with my tracking the less I used “team” — only for undefended transition plays, totally uncontested shots after the defense was scrambled (loose balls, for example), and a few other rare cases.

(5) Through (4), but, instead of uncontested, McGee comes off of his man but gets stuck under the basket. On the team.

I’m having trouble visualizing this one. If I’m reading it right, Blatche’s man dunks while McGee comes over but can’t make much of a play. In this case, I’d split it between Blatche (primary) and McGee (help). It’s important to know whether help is effective or ineffective.

(6) Instead of (5), McGee actually gets between Blatche’s man and the basket. It is on McGee. (This sort of thing has been happening A LOT. McGee is very active, maybe even over-active, on this sort of help.)

Maybe. If it’s a bang-bang play (very quick), I might still split credit. If McGee truly took over defending the guy, then it would be McGee as primary. And, of course, Butler for giving up penetration.

(7) Go back to (2), but the perimeter player dishes to Blatche’s man, who dunks. This goes to Blatche, because he never actually moved off of his player to another offensive player.

Agreed. Also noting Butler for penetration.

(8) Same as (7), except McGee, without getting into any sort of position, takes a swing at it and whiffs. Still on Blatche.

Yes.

(9) Same as (7), except McGee actually manages to block the dunk. McGee gets the attempt.

I’d score it as Blatche (primary) and McGee (secondary/help).

Also, let’s say there is a pick and roll that gets botched, allowing a dribble penetration that help only sort-of gets to? Who gets that one?

Let’s say it’s Arenas on the ball handler and McGee on the screener. Arenas gets hung up on the screen, McGee does a bad show, and the ball handler gets an easy layup. In this case, I’d record it as Arenas (primary) and McGee (secondary). Both had responsibility for defending the play, and they failed together.

And, if the help defender on a play is completely successful (e.g., gets a clean block of the shot), does the perimeter defender still get half the credit for it?

Take the same Arenas, McGee screen/roll setup. This time the ball handler pulls up for a jumper, but McGee leaps and blocks the shot. In this case, I’d give credit to McGee as primary (on a switch). Same deal if ballhandler penetrates the lane and McGee recovers to block the shot. Because at that point, McGee is no longer the secondary — he’s the primary on a switch.

Now, if McGee shows properly, Arenas recovers but there’s enough gap for ballhandler to shoot — that’d be Arenas (primary), McGee (secondary), even if McGee blocked the shot.

One point — a lot of this stuff is very easy to determine when watching video. It’s tougher to make the call from verbal descriptions because we may not be visualizing the same kind of play.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 15, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I follow, but it seems like this type of analysis actually calls more for the use of primary/secondary field goals against rather than just assigning half credits to each of two different players.

Or maybe another way to come at it is to assign half credits in situations where two players obviously combined to blow the play, while also keeping a separate category for field goal help defense. I don’t know….I want to get at something as simple as possible, even if it does come at the expense of some actual explanatory value. My goal is less to fully measure what happens on defense and more to provide a simple basis for looking at who had the flip-side of the offensive statistic.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The obvious conclusion

Talk about it together on a podcast!

(Oh noes, I’m giving too much away).

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 15, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Podcast

Huh?

My swag was phenomenal.

by se7en on Oct 16, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The first paragraph — I could sorta see doing it that way, although the advantage of splitting credit is that individual totals match the team total and it’s then possible to calculate defensive ratings for each individual player.

To the other stuff — There’s something to be said for keeping the system simple. I don’t think that splitting credit adds complexity; you can still put the numbers together in a single box score (like I did in the old defensive box I emailed to you).

The one part of your goal that I question is the last. I understand saying that you’re not necessarily looking for a full measure of defense — heck, even with far more detailed tracking we still weren’t getting everything. But, I think you could tweak your system just a bit to capture info that does a better job of reflecting what actually happens on the floor than what you’re getting right now.

Anyway, don’t let any of my comments discourage you from what you are doing. Your tracking has value, and at very least, you’ll probably learn a ton about the game.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 16, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great ideas - I agree with bwoods

I think the following are the crucial factors that should be considered in deciding what should or shouldn’t be included should be:
1. Objectivity – How well the stat can be operationally defined.
2. Simplicity – Practicality of scoring. (If it takes 30 seconds to dissect a single play, the scoring system is not going to be widely implementable. Also, rotations and help responsibilities can’t be known without awareness of the team’s defensive scheme’s or at least having pretty advanced knowledge of NBA defensive strategy.)
3. Accountability – Whether a stat actually tells you anything about a player’s defensive impact. (Blocks are fairly weak, for example.)

Is there a way to do half FGAM-A scoring that meets all three? I wouldn’t go beyond half-points or to primary-secondary allocations because I think you’re losing too much simplicity in exchange for the gain in accountability. Accounting for help responsibility or blown assignments has the same issue.

I’d argue for half-points when two players are engaging the shooter during his shooting motion (when a player would get a shooting foul — slightly subjective but widely understood). A player trailing the shooter counts, as long as he’s within reach of the shooter (he had responsibility for the shooter in most cases, and limits the shooter’s options). I like half-credits because this situation frequently will result in a 0-1 — with the primary defender limiting a shooter’s options and the secondary defender getting a block or forcing a bad shot.

For the most part, I’d be in favor of the approach in bwoods’ comment ( Oct 15, 2009 8:12 AM PDT), with the tweak of adding half-credits according to the engagement rule (Numbers 3 and 9 in the list only). That won’t capture everything, but it’s feasible and is a tremendous improvement on existing stats.

For poor on-ball defense that leads to a score of a player you’re not defending (i.e., You get beat, but there’s a pass or two before the score), what about kind of a negative assist (Defense Error)? This would be scored just like assists, with the default being no DE assigned.

by steadyhand on Oct 16, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

1. Objectivity – How well the stat can be operationally defined.
2. Simplicity – Practicality of scoring. (If it takes 30 seconds to dissect a single play, the scoring system is not going to be widely implementable. Also, rotations and help responsibilities can’t be known without awareness of the team’s defensive scheme’s or at least having pretty advanced knowledge of NBA defensive strategy.)
3. Accountability – Whether a stat actually tells you anything about a player’s defensive impact. (Blocks are fairly weak, for example.)

Agree with each. Comment on #2 — the system I’m suggesting doesn’t take long. I tracked recorded games and once I got the hang of it, I could do even the indepth stuff (tracking play types and court locations) in the time it would take to watch a live game. Basic tracking (shot responsibility (incl. primary/secondary split), FT responsibility, penetrations allowed (or Needed Help) and forced turnovers) would take a lot less time than it would take to actually sit and watch a live broadcast.

Also, rotations and responsibilities are pretty to discern if you’re paying attention. For example when I started tracking, I quickly picked up the Wizards’ defensive play names and could describe their sets with excellent accuracy (yes, I did test the accuracy of my observations with the coaching staff). Usually, the rotation/responsibility issue is pretty straightforward — a guy penetrates and there’s one defender in the paint. It’s obvious that he’s supposed to help. Every now and then there are judgement calls, but not so often that it undercuts the value of the data or the approach.

Toughest thing to score is screen/roll. Best thing to do there is pick a way of scoring it and stick to it.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 19, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like steadyhand’s analysis and suggestion on how to handle the half credits. I think that is how my approach for the season will work, but I’m going to tinker some more during the preseason. In a perfect world, I think defensive assists and defensive errors would be cool things to track, but I’m not sure I want to try that in practice yet.

TheSecretWeapon—On the rotation issue, I very much buy what you are saying for the team that one regularly follows, but if you were suddenly dropped into tracking an unfamiliar team, wouldn’t there be the potential for at least some erroneous assumptions about how that team organized its defense?

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 20, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

TheSecretWeapon—On the rotation issue, I very much buy what you are saying for the team that one regularly follows, but if you were suddenly dropped into tracking an unfamiliar team, wouldn’t there be the potential for at least some erroneous assumptions about how that team organized its defense?

It hasn’t been an issue when I’ve tracked other teams’ defense. I’ve done that for Wizards’ opponents, as well as projects involving other teams.

Understand — I was not taking a guess at responsibilities, I was recording what the players actually did. So, if Chris Paul blows by Kidd and Dirk comes over to help — I record that, even if it was actually Howard’s responsibility to help on that play.

In a tracking project I did for another NBA team, for example, there was one guy who seldom got involved as a help defender. This showed up in the numbers in 2 ways — first, his help possessions were abnormally low; and 2nd his frontcourt teammates had a higher number of help possessions when he was on the floor. The coaches of that team already had a sense from video review that he wasn’t pulling his weight, but it was undeniable when they got the defensive tracking numbers.

They hadn’t acted on their feeling (or scrutinized it any closer) because they were a solid defensive team anyway and because his defensive shirking was subtle enough that if they weren’t looking for it, it wasn’t something that would jump out and grab them.

I think we’re all in agreement that whatever tracking rules are being used, what’s critical is recording what actually happens on the floor. Then get into what the numbers say/don’t say. And then adjust the method if there’s a better way.

by TheSecretWeapon on Oct 20, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

impressive ... and badly needed

Wow! I’m blown away!

Don’t mean to interrupt the fine tuning that readers are already suggesting but I just wanted to recognize your effort publically: a lot of work and thought have obviously gone into this, and it’s a need that has been unaddressed for way too long. Really, my heartiest congratuations. Without this kind of tracking we’ll continue to be stuck ad nauseum with so many opinions in hoop blogs about whether such-and-such player is a solid defender or a liability.

Very well reasoned; very well written.

I did get lost a little bit, however, on FTAM-A… it translates too easily to Free Throw Attempts – Made vs Attempted, which the fan base could easily confuse with Free Throws Made vs. Attempted. Honestly, I myself am not sure that I get what you’re saying. Are we talking about Fouls Drawn vs Fouls Given (or simply “Fouls”)? As you comment, it should matter whether ALL fouls are counted, not just shooting fouls… though some fouls are more important than other in deciding the game’s outcome. As an obvious example, taking an offensive charge results in a double or even a triple defensive plus: the turnover, the foul accumulated against the opposition player (and team), and often the fruitless attempt to draw a foul that ended up getting turned on its head (i.e., lost opportunity). Possibly some other acronym not containing “F” or “T” would help. (BTW, what’s that “FR” again?)

Finally – and I’m serious about this – how soon and by what route do you think this change in defensive stat recording can get officially adopted by NBA.com? I understand that it would require a small army of fans with DVD recorders and slo-mo, but I also imagine that this info would be very useful for coaches (if they’re not already getting it through FO personnel) and that many fans would appreciate the chance to get a different perspective on the game (as you so rightfully comment) and also make a contribution that might help the home team.

In other words, a chance for us as fans to do something beyond putting forth our dearly held opinions – hoop blogging has evolved into quite an amazing phenomena, hasn’t it – or otherwise spent griping about FO or court-time decisions we don’t agree with.

by artreddin on Oct 15, 2009 1:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

labels

The category labels were left as kind of an afterthought, and I see how they were confusing. On the chart, FR stands for “fouls received” but “fouls drawn” or FD might be better. Not sure. On the foul shots against categories… DFTM-A? (defended free throws made-attempted)

And yes, taking a charge gets the player a + in both Fouls Drawn and Turnovers Created.

by bwoodsxyz on Oct 15, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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