Showing the love
With little going on with the Wizards, I've been trying to keep tabs on what little NBA tidbits are out there. The major story regarding the NBA itself right now is the restricted free agency "negotiation" of Chicago's Ben Gordon, which has been well-documented by Blogabull. There's too much to take in it one sentence, but to summarize: Gordon rejects 5/50 last offseason, Bulls re-sign Luol Deng, Gordon says he wants to be paid like the leading scorer on the team, Bulls offer 6/59 but no more because of the luxury tax, Gordon talks about how he and the Bulls have no future.
Gordon's status on the Bulls seems kind of similar to Gilbert Arenas', though Arenas is clearly the better and more important player. Both are seen as shoot-first gunners who aren't really point guards, but are too "small" to be shooting guards. Both had their reputations hurt last season -- Arenas because the Wizards did fairly well with him injured, Gordon because he had his worst season and the Bulls plummeted. Both were seen as focal points of their teams' rebuilding projects, but in light of recent events, some were calling both expendable and unworthy of a long-term commitment.
Yet where the Wizards stroked Gilbert's ego and got him to take less money than necessary, the Bulls have taken the hard line on Gordon. They aren't budging on their 6 year/59 million dollar offer, which I find somewhat interesting because while such a contract puts them up against the luxury tax, such considerations didn't stop them from dolling out large contracts for Andres Nocioni, Kirk Hinrich and Deng. In response, Gordon has made some ridiculous public statements, saying he won't take the qualifying offer even though there's really no alternative.
Whether the Bulls or Wizards handled their negotiations correctly isn't exactly the point of this post (I'm definitely wary of paying Gordon as much as he seems to want), but I've always wondered what would have happened if the Bulls made it clear to Gordon that he was, in different words, "their guy," as the Wizards did with Arenas. Would Gordon have dropped his "pay me like I'm the leading scorer" edict and taken less money if he felt more loved? If the Bulls didn't keep pulling him on and off the bench, would he have been more inclined to take an offer like 6/59?
Better yet, what if the Wizards had adopted the Bulls' stance on Arenas? What if Ernie Grunfeld didn't stroke Gilbert's ego by immediately offering the max and pleading with him to take a bit of a discount? Would Gilbert have still been here? Would he have taken Golden State's max contract offer and left? Would he have made several public statements, but ultimately re-sign and use it as motivation?
No matter what, I'd rather have my guy locked up, even if it means paying him a little more than he might be worth. In the short run, if the Bulls lose Gordon, they will be a worse team because there is nobody who can score. In the long run, maybe they'll be better, but that's asking for two more years of what-ifs. The Wizards don't have to worry about what-ifs necessarily, and for that, I'm happy Ernie negotiated in the way he did.
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Gilbert set up Ernie’s approach by representing himself. If Gilbert had an agent, Ernie might have initially low balled him, like he did with Jamison. Ernie could be aggressive with Jamison’s agent without offending Jamison, but he had to be especially careful dealing directly with Arenas.
I assume Gordon has an agent. Having an agent can reinforce an adversarial relationship. Gordon does seem pretty unhappy there anyways, and might have felt the need to have an agent to protect himself. For the Wizards, Ernie’s positive relationship with Gilbert prior to negotiations gave Gilbert the comfort to represent himself.
Given the different contexts, the Wizards and Bulls handled it well.
by Aldo on Aug 18, 2008 10:54 PM EDT 0 recs
Gordon does have an agent
and if the reports are accurate, they’re not doing him any favors with the “most points = most money” talking points.
Plus, Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf is a notorious negotiator, and is known not to like agents in general. But once someone’s dubbed one of his guys, Reinsdorf will start the weepy sentimentality (see Doug Collins). It’s strange.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 18, 2008 11:17 PM EDT
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Bulls just don't seem to have a grand plan
Matt@BlogABull will know better, but Bulls management seems to be rudderless. Even excluding the decision not to trade for a Garnett or Gasol, and understanding that the Gordon situation isn’t solely their making, the team is wasting the assets that made them so appealing just a year ago.
Arenas may prove to be overpaid, but credit Ernie with having an agenda and accomplishing it this summer. At the very least, it brings stability to the franchise and leaves the fanbase, if not thrilled, confident in the team and cautiously optimistic.
by WRG on Aug 19, 2008 12:18 AM EDT 1 recs
Gordon is doing what a lot of NBA players do....
in overvaluing himself – but then again, you can’t exactly blame him because obscene amounts of money are constantly being throw at players who don’t deserve it.
Despite a down year, he still is one of the top 5 “clutch” players in the NBA — according to 82games.com.
Unfortunately for the Bulls, because of the dwindling hesitancy of many players to go on a European vacation, the leverage of Reinsdorf ain’t what it used to be.
And yes, much credit goes to Grunfeld for the way he handled negotiations……Aldo has a good point as well.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net
by Truth About It on Aug 19, 2008 9:39 AM EDT 0 recs
Whether a wine is dry or sweet...
In the end, it’s all just fermented grape juice. Ben Gordon and his representation can throw out all the hard line BS they want, but is someone else gonna pay him more? Ernie and Abe gave Gilbert all the love in the world, but they also gave him the most money. With very few exceptions, players follow the dollar signs (Didn’t Baron Davis take less $ to play in LA?).
Comparing Gordon and Gilbert has several rich parallels, many of which have already been pointed out. Where Gilbert trumps Gordon, however, is in roster make-up. Ernie could whisper sweet nothings into Gilbert’s ear because the Wiz really had no other pg option. AD is great and we had a decent run with him last year, but to rely on him for another full season would be insane. The Bulls have Hinrich, Hughes, and now Rose, so they really shouldn’t offer Gordon too much money. He’s either going to be a split-time starter or a back-up SG. I’m shocked they offered him as much as they did. If I were Gordon’s agent, I’d have had my player’s signature on that offer before it fully printed from the fax machine.
The underlying point here is how catastrophic last year was for the Bulls. Ben Wallace got old overnight, Tyrus Thomas lost his LSU nastiness, Luol Deng didn’t turn the corner, and the Hinrich/Gordon combo devolved from lethal to pedestrian. The biggest hit, IMHO, was Thomas. I’m sure the Bulls bloggers have covered it ad naseum, but that guy went from world beater to wus in the blink of an eye. Without Thomas’ development, their interior defense lost its teeth when Ben Wallace lost his. Joakim Noah couldn’t pick up the slack and the Bulls’ guards were exposed defensively. Offensively, they’ve always been a streaky jump-shooting team, so nothing was available to make up for their slackening defense. Had their defense not crumbled; had their young studs developed faster; the bulls might have won more games and made the playoffs in the laughable eastern conference. If they had, Gordon’s bargaining power would be much better than it is right now. The leading scorer of a perennial playoff team gets paid; the leading scorer of a car crash gets shown the door.
Now, they’re beyond rudderless; they’ve missed the entire boat. They’re perimeter-heavy, defensively-challenged, and comparatively-nonathletic. Derrick Rose could fix a lot of these problems, of course, but he has his own issues like inexperience, a balky knee, and a poor jump shot. They’ll be an interesting team to watch, but I don’t think their roster is set yet. One of those guards has to go and it’s looking more and more like it’ll be Gordon.
p.s. I miss my NBA.
by jvflail on Aug 19, 2008 11:39 AM EDT 0 recs
I disagree about potential replacements
I wouldn’t look at it like a “guard glut.” The Bulls have nobody who can score on that team, save for Gordon. Unless Rose really develops quickly, there’s nobody who can create their own shot like Gordon. Hinrich really can’t play shooting guard and Hughes is worthless.
Gordon holds just as much value in that sense to the Bulls, at least in the short term. A viable argument is that signing Gordon for six years hurts you in the long run, but in the short run, Hinrich and Hughes are not viable replacements for Gordon.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 12:08 PM EDT
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It's a glut in every way but skill
Hinrich and Hughes make starters’ money; Rose is the #1 pick; and Gordon is looking for astronomical money. They all think they should be starting and none of them will be happy with a reserve role. That qualifies as a glut to me. Besides, even if they all come together happily, the Bulls will be a perimeter-dominated, jump-shooting team. Gordon’s a good scorer, but he doesn’t change that.
I agree each of them has something different to offer in terms of skill. Gordon has scoring. Rose has athleticism. Hinrich has leadership and the 3-ball (or at least he used to). Hughes is definitely close to being washed out, but without him, their average backcourt height is 6’2. Plus, he had a 40-point game last year, so I’m not sure everyone considers him washed out.
by jvflail on
Aug 19, 2008 12:41 PM EDT
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Sign and Trade
You basically make the case that a sign-and-trade is the best outcome for both sides. I think the Bulls actions are consistent with that expectation (though they were maybe hoping they could get him “cheap”.) My only substantive disagreement is that I wouldn’t (as his agent) have advocated him signing this latest 6/59 offer – if think if he holds out the sign-and-trade will happen, he’ll get a few million more and end up as the clear starter somewhere else.
by RamVA on
Aug 19, 2008 12:54 PM EDT
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Problem with a sign and trade
Is that Gordon is a base-year compensation player, so his salary is only half of its actual value in a trade.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
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I'm not clear why that's a problem...
…that’s what makes the trade viable and attractive for CHI. They can sign him to (say) 6/72 and swap him for a mid-level guy. Admittedly I don’t know who wants him with that contract…
by RamVA on
Aug 19, 2008 3:52 PM EDT
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Huh?
If they sign and trade Gordon, they aren’t getting anywhere close to equal value, both literally (moneywise) and figuratively (talent-wise). It’d be like trading Gordon for Mike James. How does that help Chicago?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
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Depends on what you think the alternative is...
1. Ben signs a contract with someone else that CHI can’t match without paying tax.
2. Ben signs the QO and then walks next year for nothing.
3. Ben goes to Europe, comes back next year and we do this dance again.
4. Sign-and-trade.
If you assume Chicago doesn’t think they’re good enough to pay the tax, and you know they can’t sign him to a deal that would keep them out of the tax, then isn’t #4 the only way to ensure they get something for him?
by RamVA on
Aug 19, 2008 5:26 PM EDT
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I wish
You all paint a bleak picture for the Bulls. Lots of fun to read. But somehow I have a hard time believing it.
In any case, I’ve always felt Gordon was too one dimensional to be a great player—or a top contract player. I figured he’d have conflicts once his contract expired.
by MR on Aug 19, 2008 3:48 PM EDT 0 recs
He's not going to be paid to be a great player
9-11 million a year is what you pay for a guy who is going to be a secondary option on your team. Here are some guys who make similar or more money:
-Kirk Hinrich (little less)
-Jason Richardson (more)
-Maurice Williams (similar)
-Michael Redd (much more)
-Jason Terry (similar)
-Richard Hamilton (similar)
-Corey Maggette (similar)
-Mike Dunleavy (little less)
-Joe Johnson (much more)
-Richard Jefferson (more)
-Peja Stojakovic (more)
-Rashard Lewis (much, much more)
-Andre Miller (little less)
-Kevin Martin
-Manu Ginobili
-Tony Parker
-Andrei Kirilenko (much more)
-Caron Butler
Of that list, only Martin, Ginobili, Parker and Butler are worlds better than Gordon, and only Martin and the criminally overpaid Redd and Johnson are the de facto top option on their teams.
Chicago had one of the worst offenses in the league last year and that was with Gordon. They added Rose, but Rose is a 19-year old rookie. Imagine how bad it’ll be without Gordon.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 4:48 PM EDT
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Secondary to whom?
I assume you mean Deng, but he just signed a 6-year $71 million deal. If Gordon is turning down 6/59, he’s looking for primary option type money. If I’m the Bulls, I ask why we should pay primary money for a secondary player.
The list of secondary players is well done and Gordon does fit in, although I rank him more toward the middle than the top. You really think Ben Gordon is equal to or slightly less effective than Joe Johnson, Rip Hamilton, Jason Richardson, and Michael Redd? Maybe it’s just his bad year talking, but I think Gordon’s ideal role is as a scoring-specializing 6th man. Plus,if anything grows on trees in the NBA, it’s scoring 2-guards. All these factors combine in my mind to rationalize the Bulls’ hard line. If they pay him what he’s asking, the Bulls are committing themselves to several years of the Deng-Hinrich-Gordon nucleus; something the Bulls brass is understandably wary of following last year.
by jvflail on
Aug 19, 2008 5:28 PM EDT
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Secondary to Rose
Deng and Gordon would be 2a and 2b, Hinrich would be traded for cap relief.
Again, the issue is whether the Bulls’ hard-line, no above the tax under any circumstances, no possibility of dumping any salary to give them more room under the tax (Paxson has said he’s not making any other moves until he sorts Gordon/Deng out) is causing Gordon to publicly state he’s worth more than he is. If they demonstrated a little more flexibility, perhaps Gordon wouldn’t have made those statements.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
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Really?
Rose wasn’t even option 1 at Memphis. But I catch your drift. We’re a bit off-topic here.
by jvflail on
Aug 19, 2008 5:46 PM EDT
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I hope he's supposed to be the top option
He was the #1 pick after all.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 5:55 PM EDT
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Interesting Question
If the Bulls had taken Beasley, would we be having this discussion right now? The Bulls would need Gordon in the backcourt, so they probably would’ve played hardball with Deng.
by jvflail on
Aug 19, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
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Perhaps
Though I’d probably say they’d play hardball with neither if they took Beasley, since they seem to like Deng so much.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 6:52 PM EDT
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I think you misunderstand me
I agree with you.
Some of those guys are better, some not as good as Gordon. Some got stupid big contracts at the right moment. Some are priced right. I think the Bulls are offering him about the right amount (just under 10)
I think Ben wants to get a stupid big contract (12+). I think he overvalues himself. I think the Bulls don’t want to give him a stupid big contract. Hence the conflict that I’ve been expecting for some time.
by MR on Aug 19, 2008 5:09 PM EDT 0 recs
Aight, my fault
I think that about sums it up.
However, the one question I keep coming back to Is this (and I think this was what I was trying to get across with this post).
What if the Bulls went to Gordon and said “listen, we like you. We think you’re as much a part of our future as Luol Deng, based on your contributions in the past. Like with Luol, we think your 2006/07 season is more indicative of your caliber than last year. That said, we’re right up against the luxury tax. We like you and will pay you a little more than we can to go slightly over the luxury tax, because we’re trying to trade some guys anyway, but we will really hurt our cap flexibility if we do that and we’ll have trouble significantly improving the team. We’re willing to pay you Monta Ellis money, but it would make it easier for you to play with better teammates if you take a little bit less. What do you say?”
Would Gordon still go public with his demands to be the highest-paid player? I’m not sure, but I definitely think he wouldn’t be making as many public statements because he’d feel more wanted. Right now, he sees that Chicago has been willing to pay a little extra to all the other key members of that 2006/07 team, but won’t afford him the same treatment even though he was a huge part of their success. I can understand why he’s feeling a bit slighted.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 5:22 PM EDT
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Is there anyone besides Gil that’s ever done that? (That’s a real question, not a rhetorical one)
I think the only way it worked with Agent 0 is that he said something about it months in advance, the press picked it up and ran with it, and the Wiz offered him the max anyway and let him decide.
I wouldn’t count on that for many players. Gil is a special/quirky personality. Plus he knows that if the team gets to the finals his endorsements will dwarf the difference between the max and what he took.
by MR on Aug 19, 2008 5:33 PM EDT 0 recs
Well, maybe there's no need to explicitly say we'll pay you more than 6/59 to keep you
But if Chicago reiterated to Gordon that they’d try to make moves to keep him around, I doubt he’d go public with his demands to be paid 12-13 million dollars a year. He’s pissed off at the Bulls for taking the hard line on him while not doing the same for all his teammates, so he’s responding with ridiculous proposals. If you remember, Antawn Jamison did the same, though that eventually worked out.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 5:36 PM EDT
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Question about Gordon
I’d like to get other opinions of Gordon from the gallery.
In my mind he’s a very good shooter with so-so defense, an undersized SG without PG skills, can only marginally create his own shot (due to the fact that he can hit difficult shots). He doesn’t get to the basket or finish particularly well. He’s not that athletic. His one standout skill is that he seems to have “it”. That ability to hit the big shot (or go on a streak) when it really counts. He has as much “it” as anyone in the league. But his lack of other exceptional skills makes him a uniquely one dimensional player.
Many people on this board probably watch him more than me (since I pretty much only watch the Bulls when they play the Wizards). Opinions? Am I wrong?
by MR on Aug 19, 2008 5:42 PM EDT 0 recs
He's so one-dimensional
I wouldn’t bench Deshawn for him if Gordon magically appeared on the Wiz’s roster. He’s a rich man’s Juan Dixon.
by jvflail on
Aug 19, 2008 5:55 PM EDT
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He's definitely better than that
His per-minute numbers through his first four seasons mirror Ray Allen’s first four years. He’s a little small, but I don’t think it’s made such a big difference for the Bulls, especially defensively. Before last year, they were a top-five defensive team even with Gordon’s supposed shortcomings. That might be because they hide those deficiencies well, but again, if those deficiencies can be hidden, that must mean he’s not that bad.
The Bulls keep putting him in bad positions that make him look worse. He’s not a great ball-handler, yet their default end-of-game play was putting Gordon at the top of the key and having a no-offense guy who is no threat to score set a pick. Inevitably, Gordon would be trapped and the guy setting the screen offered no help since he was no help to score on the roll.
He definitely has his deficiencies. He’s not a great ball-handler and though he’s improved his driving ability, he’s not a huge threat going to the rim. He’s forced to take a lot of bad shots, yet his true shooting percentage for his career is still 54.8. Excepting last year, his adjusted plus/minus numbers have always been strong.
He reminds me of a young Jason Terry in Atlanta. Terry was a better ball-handler and passer, but they were comparable scorers. Either that or someone like Ricky Pierce in Milwaukee, who was a sixth man, but basically played starters minutes. Gordon may be a sixth man, but he’s hardly a bench player.
The 2006/07 Gordon is probably worth 10-12 million, though the 2007/08 Gordon may not even be worth 6/59. It depends on what you think you’re getting. Ultimately, 10-11 million per year seems pretty fair to me.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 6:05 PM EDT
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What he said
I think the money he’s getting offered right now is fair. But if I’m Ben, wouldn’t I want to be breaking perceptions by talking about how I can contribute in different ways to the team, rather than playing the “I score the most, so I should get payed the most” card? He’s not exactly helping his commonly held perception by doing that.
Bullets Forever: Where fancy numbers and YouTube come together.
by JakeTheSnake on
Aug 19, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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+1
It’s important to consider he’s more likely to get better in the future than worse.
by RamVA on
Aug 19, 2008 8:39 PM EDT
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Also
I’m actually wondering if anyone besides Gil (and MJ) has ever left any NBA money on the table to improve the team. I can’t think of any. Can anyone?
Garnett, as much as I love him for many reasons, always got a lot of sympathy for carrying the T-Pups all alone in mediocrity…but nobody ever questioned why he didn’t give up some green and restructure his contract so they could afford better players.
Again, I think it should be a no brainer for these guys. The top players will more than make up for the difference with commercial money if they build a bigger profile with the public by winning.
I think Gil is unique in many ways, but his lack of an agent I think made this one possible.
by MR on Aug 19, 2008 5:51 PM EDT 0 recs
Duncan did it, I think
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 19, 2008 5:56 PM EDT
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You are correct on Garnett
That contract and the subsequent machinations that sprang from it handicapped that franchise for a long time. I don’t anyone who criticized KG for that, except me.
"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck
by George Templeton on
Aug 20, 2008 1:07 AM EDT
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To be fair
You can’t restructure contracts in the NBA after they are signed.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
Aug 20, 2008 2:46 AM EDT
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Good Luck Ben!
We were able to work things out with Gilbert and Antawn because we knew we wanted them. Chicago, I’m telling you, is not so sure about Gordon.
by jvflail on Aug 19, 2008 5:52 PM EDT 0 recs
Right on
He’s not part of their plan, because they are not planning on winning this year.
If they can/could get him cheap they’d figure out what they need to around him (move Hinrich), but they aren’t killing themselves over it when they know they’re a 7-seed at best.
by RamVA on
Aug 19, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
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I think you're right.
And I’m not sure I can say that the Bulls are wrong about that.
Plus, aren’t they supposedly angling for the Wade sweepstakes?
by MR on Aug 19, 2008 5:53 PM EDT 0 recs
Yep....too many comments
For a non-Wizards (essentially) post.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net
by Truth About It on Aug 19, 2008 9:36 PM EDT 0 recs












