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Eyeing the prize: Nine potential trades to make in 2010

I hate to disappoint many of you, but I don't see the Wizards making any major changes to their roster this season.  Other than potentially signing someone like Bonzi Wells for a one-year minimum contract, what you see is what you'll probably get for the duration of this season.  

Considering their payroll structure, a major move this season doesn't make sense.  Their projected 2009/10 payroll is likely going to place them above the luxury tax threshold even if they do nothing.  They also don't really have any assets that are valuable this season.  Unless you count Dominic McGuire and Dee Brown, the Wizards have no players whose contracts expire in the offseason.  Additionally, with the possible exception of Andray Blatche, the Wizards don't really have any youngsters who have shown much, unless Nick Young's rookie season or Dominic McGuire's Summer League campaigns count.

Many see this as a bad thing, but not me.  Truthfully, we're not close enough to be making that final move to put us over the top.  We haven't laid much of a foundation, having won 45, 42, 41 and 43 games in the past four years.  One could argue that necessitates making a big move, but as indicated above, we simply don't have the assets right now.  Any move will likely involve a key member of our team, and that's not something we should be doing.

The picture changes, however, after the end of next season.  Suddenly, we're armed with three players (Brendan Haywood, Antonio Daniels and Etan Thomas) who give us a combined 20 million dollars in expiring contracts.  We're also likely armed with youngsters like Young, McGuire and maybe Pecherov, McGee and a potential 2009 first-rounder who have shown enough to be used as legitimate sweetners in a trade.  Finally, if we stay healthy this year, we'll likely win more than 45 games and create a more solid foundation for which to take that next step. 

That, combined with the allure of the 2010 free agent class, should allow us to make a trade for a strong player on a team looking to the future.  It's very difficult to say exactly which players will fit the bill, but this post will try to target some guys who could provide us with missing ingredients (perimeter defense, rebounding, versatility, etc.) that can turn us into legitimate contenders. 

The key, though, is to not trade any of our core guys.  That's why the Lakers' trade for Pau Gasol was successful and the Mavericks' trade for Jason Kidd wasn't.  By "core guys," I'm talking about players who are essential for their respective teams, not necessarily the best players on the club. 

So who is part of the Wizards' core?  Here's how I'd break it down.

  • Gilbert Arenas: Pretty self-explanatory
  • Caron Butler: Ditto.
  • Antawn Jamison: It's mostly because of his contract.  Still, every time Jamison gets hurt, this team suffers tremendously.  I imagine he's going to start a slow decline next year, but even so, his value is extremely important both on and off the court.
  • Brendan Haywood: This is a tough one for me.  On the one hand, Haywood represents six million of the Wizards' 20-million dollars of expiring contracts in 2010, but on the other hand, Haywood's the only real center on the team and the only strong interior defender.  He also doesn't really need to score a ton to be effective on the other end, so in this respect, he blends well with the Big 3.  The only way I'd trade him is if a real superstar (e.g. Amare Stoudamire, Yao Ming, etc.) is out there.  For these second-tier guys that will be discussed, it's not worth trading Haywood.
  • Andray Blatche: I'm also going to put Blatche in this group because his contract is too small to account for his upside.  He's not only our best prospect, but he's also locked up to a long-term deal for only three million dollars a season.  Like Haywood, if a megastar was available, I'd consider trading Blatche, but for these second-tier guys, I'm hoping our other young guys are good enough to be sweetners.

Outside of those five guys, I'd trade anybody. 

So who do I have in mind?  Make the jump for some possibilities.

Star-divide

Joe Johnson, Atlanta Hawks (2009/10 salary: 14,976,754)

I talked a lot about Johnson in this comment, but I think he'd be an outstanding fit on the Wizards.  Seeing as how Atlanta lost Josh Childress and is set to lose Josh Smith, Johnson, at 27, is likely not in their future plans, and he might not have been even if they continued to improve.  He's definitely a shooting guard, but he has very solid point guard skills even though he's not a pure point.  In Atlanta, Johnson's assist ratios were always very strong and his turnover percentage was pretty low.  That would make him a perfect fit for the Princeton, who needs players who can create for themselves and others.  

The issue with Johnson is that he's not particularly efficient offensively, but I think that's because he was forced to do too much in Atlanta.  His usage rates were astronomically high in Atlanta, but pretty low in his last years in Phoenix.  He posted his highest effective field goal percentage and true shooting percentage in his final year with the Suns, when he wasn't a primary option.  On the Wizards, with Arenas, Butler and Jamison already in the fold, Johnson won't have to do as much as he did in Atlanta.  Johnson's also a pretty decent defender, so he might help there as well.

The issue is that Johnson is a free agent after the 2010 season, but Atlanta likely wouldn't retain him anyway.  Still, this means that we need to offer Atlanta comparable money in expiring contracts, plus a sweetner that would allow them to get a little more than cap space for Johnson. 

I'd offer Etan Thomas (7.3 million in 09/10), Antonio Daniels (6.6 million in 09/10) and Nick Young (1.7 million in 09/10) for Johnson.  Atlanta gets nearly as much expiring money, plus a promising replacement in Young.  The Wizards would be a little thin in the backcourt, so we might need to go over the tax to get a backup replacement for AD, but we were likely over the tax anyway.  We'd start Arenas, Johnson, Butler, Jamison and Haywood, with Blatche, Songaila and DeShawn Stevenson as the key reserves.  We still need another point guard and it'd be nice if McGuire took a step forward, but that's a dynamite eight-man rotation.

Emeka Okafor, Charlotte Bobcats (2009/10 salary: ~12 million)

Okafor probably isn't worth 12 million, but I think he could help for a pretty low price.  At the very least, Okafor could be a third big, along with Haywood and Jamison going forward.  He's an excellent rebounder and shot blocker, and on this team, I'm willing to excuse his offensive struggles.  He could do the dirty work for about 30 minutes a night even if he is overpaid.

This might also move Jamison to the bench, where he can serve as a sixth man and still play starter's minutes.  Okafor's a good enough defender to cut into Haywood's minutes, though I'd still try my best to get Haywood 30 minutes a game.

My proposed offer is Etan Thomas (7.3 million), Darius Songaila (4.5 million) and a 2010 protected first-rounder for Okafor.  Charlotte saves money in both 2010 and 2011 while getting two frontcourt guys for the price of one.  Okafor is better than Thomas and Songaila, but Charlotte's pretty thin up front even with Okafor.  We get a guy who can immediately become our best rebounder and shot-blocker and could allow Jamison to rest more, all while holding on to AD's expiring contract, which would allow us to pay Haywood.  

My biggest worry is the long-term commitment we're making to a marginal player.  Okafor isn't worth 12 million for one year, much less six.  He would be brought in to play a specific role when someone cheaper would do.   

Speaking of Charlotte, Jason Richardson could be another option.  He makes less money than Johnson, albeit for one more year.  I don't know how he'd fit with us, but that's another possibility.

Richard Hamilton (2009/10 salary: 11,625,000, but with an ETO) or Tayshaun Prince (2009/10 salary: 10,324,380)

Detroit is definitely a team we should target.  Their core could very well be broken up soon, because their progress has stalled.  All of their best players are second-tier guys that we would have a chance at securing.  Rasheed Wallace would be the perfect fit, but he's a free agent after next season and is getting up there in years. 

My two best bets are Hamilton or Prince.  Hamilton would be very ironic, but I see him possibly helping.  He's more of a set-play type of guy, but he moves so well without the ball that he could definitely boost the offense.  He's not known as a great defender, but he's shown that he can play excellent defense.  Prince plays Butler's position, but he's versatile enough to allow Butler to shift to shooting guard and he's an outstanding defender. 

How would we get either?

One offer could be Etan Thomas (7.3 million), DeShawn Stevenson (3.9 million),  JaVale McGee (1.5 million) and a 2010 protected first-rounder for Hamilton (11.6 million) and Arron Afflalo (1.1 million).  Detroit gets a stopgap replacement for Hamilton and still saves a decent amount of money while getting a big man prospect and another draft pick.

I like this one better, though.  Etan Thomas, DeShawn Stevenson, Dominic McGuire (~1 million) and a 2010 protected first-round pick for Tayshaun Prince (10.3 million) Arron Afflalo (1.1 million) and Will Bynum (900,000).  It's about the same package, but this way, Detroit saves more money in 2010, since Prince's contract doesn't expire until 2011.  They would need to find a small forward, so I still don't think they go for it, but it's worth checking out.

Shawn Marion, Miami (2009/10 salary: ~12 million?)

In a lot of ways, Marion is a perfect fit.  He's an extremely versatile player who can guard a ton of positions and compensate for a lot of Jamison's problems.  I'm less concerned with moving Butler to shooting guard if we somehow got Marion, because Marion can even guard shooting guards.  He's also mostly a perimeter player, so that would convince Jamison to stay in the post.  The problem is that Marion is looking for a big extension and only Miami will likely be able to give it to him. 

Maybe we could jump in with a sign-and-trade in the offseason.  If so, assuming Marion's value is 12 million dollars (a major assumption), here's a potential offer for Miami:

Antonio Daniels (6.6 million) + Etan Thomas (7.3 million) + Nick Young (1.7 million) + 2009 rookie (~1.5 million) for Marion (3 years at 12 million per) + Marcus Banks (4.5 million). 

Banks stinks and has a deal through 2011, but he could at least fill the backup point role behind Arenas.  Marion slides Butler to the shooting guard and Stevenson to the bench, giving the Wizards a lot of versatility on the perimeter.  We also preserve our frontcourt depth by keeping Songaila and McGee.

We can go small (Marion at the PF with Stevenson and Butler), big (Butler at SG with Jamison and Marion) or more traditional (Stevenson/Butler/Jamison) and still be effective.  It would probably force Blatche to play more center, but he needs to be inside anyway.

The issue is that I don't think we'd want to invest more than four years in Marion.  If we signed Marion for four years, we'd have Butler, Jamison, Marion and Arenas coming off the books in sequential years.  That'd make it somewhat difficult to re-sign any of those key pieces without venturing over the luxury tax (not to mention Haywood, who becomes even more important with all the youth behind him). 

Still, it's a move I'd consider.  Marion's the type of player that we should go over the luxury tax to sign. 

Michael Redd (2009/10 salary: 17,040,000)

Might as well mention him, since he'll almost certainly be available once Milwaukee realizes they need to rebuild.  I don't like him because he doesn't play defense and is expensive, but he's certainly interesting.  That said, I'd only offer Milwaukee Daniels/Thomas/Stevenson for Redd.  No prospects.  That'd save Milwaukee 14 million dollars and provide them a replacement for Redd.  We'd start Redd with Arenas/Butler/Jamison/Haywood, with Dee Brown, Nick Young, Dominic McGuire, Andray Blatche and Darius Songaila as our top bench guys.  There's too much youth on that bench for my taste and we'd certainly be over the luxury tax.

No thanks.

-Shane Battier (2009/10 salary: 6,864,000)

I don't think that Battier is redundant with Ron Artest, but what happens if Artest ends up hurting the Rockets more than he helps them?  I'm guessing they would want to rebuild, and Battier is one of the few contracts that extend past 2010.  They might be open to moving him even if they are good next season. 

Here's my offer: Etan Thomas (7.3 million) and Nick Young (1.7 million) for Battier (6.8 million) and Chuck Hayes (1.9 million).  For the Wizards, Battier and Hayes will provide a ton of defense and toughness inside.  It's not a sexy move, but it goes a long way towards fixing our deficiencies.  Houston saves 7.3 million with Etan and gets a potential replacement for McGrady in Young for two role players that don't figure in their future plans. 

Our depth chart becomes crowded up front, so it might make sense to find a taker for Songaila, but here's how it looks otherwise.

PG: Arenas/Daniels/Brown

SG: Butler/Stevenson

SF: Battier/McGuire/09 pick

PF: Jamison/Hayes/Songaila

  C: Haywood/Blatche/McGee/Pecherov

Alternatively, we could start Stevenson and make Battier the sixth man.  Either way, I like this move as a low-risk deal.  It goes a long way towards fixing our biggest problems and it won't cost us much.

-Brad Miller (2009/10 salary: 12,250,000)

Miller has been rumored to go elsewhere as early as this offseason, but if he's still on the Kings' roster, he'd fit in well because he's an excellent rebounder and a solid passer.  He's getting up there in years, but we could easily re-sign him for less money after 2010. 

What about offering Etan Thomas (7.3 million), Antonio Daniels (6.6 million) and a 2010 first-rounder for Miller (12.3 million) and Quincy Douby (2.1 million). Sacramento gets an extra asset for Miller while saving the same amount of money, while the Wizards get a solid frontcourt reserve who can still really play and a young combo guard to replace AD.  This would probably signal the end of Songaila's tenure in D.C., though I'm not sure who I'd get for him.

We'd have the same starting lineup, but Miller would be an outstanding sixth man.  Again, my biggest worry is our lack of experienced depth, so I'm hoping that one of Douby, Brown, Young, McGuire, Blatche and McGee can become a solid reserve.  If not, re-sign Miller for less after 2010 and use money that would have been allocated to some of those guys to get a good role player for the MLE.

Andrei Kirilenko (2009/10 salary: 16,452,000)

Kirilenko's contract is monstrous, but like Shawn Marion, he would dramatically improve the Wizards' defense.  The problem is that Kirilenko isn't as good as Marion and costs more, but I still think it's worth taking a look at what it would take to acquire him.

My best offer is Etan (7.3 million), AD (6.6 million) and Dominic McGuire (~1 million) for Kirilenko (16.4 million).  Etan and AD can fit in as backups, while McGuire may help fill Kirilenko's void.  I doubt Utah goes for it, though, because they wouldn't have a small forward.

I imagine more possibilities will emerge, but those strike me as the most likely.  Of the ones mentioned, my favorite would be the Joe Johnson proposal, followed by the Battier/Hayes package. 

Either way, there are possibilities out there that will help us much more than being hasty and trading a member of our core in a desperate attempt to get better right now.

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First off, very good post. I hope our GM is as thoughtful (though I give him credit for being two steps ahead of us).

In terms of the untradeables, (assuming we win 45+ games) my only disagreement is that both Haywood and Blatche won’t be on the list. If it looks like we’re very close Blatche has to be on the block (i.e. mortgage the future to win now), and if we’re not and Blatche turns out to be what he’s supposed to be Haywood is expendable for a difference-maker. Mind you I’m high on both, but let’s be realistic…

Even with that said, I think the folks you’re talking about are pipe dreams – we just don’t have the pieces to give up that make it worthwhile for CHA, ATL, or MIL to give up the guys you’re talking about. Shane Battier (much as I hate to say it) would be a great piece, but as long as HOU contends it’s out of the picture – ditto AK47. I’m a big Brad Miller fan (admitting some historic Pacers allegiance, don’t ask), but SAC is going to want better pieces back and can probably get them elsewhere. Keep in mind, given what you’re holding out, all we have is expiring contracts (AD, Etan), middle-aged role-players (Darius, DeShawn) and young talent that is unproven as we speak (MgG, McV, NY, Pech, Dee) – a team will have to be in full-on firesale mode to make that happen…

... which leads me to MY08-09. I think the deadline this year could be a make-or-break opportunity for us. If we’re looking strong (i.e. on track for 50++ wins) and other teams are facing some obvious conclusions (as with NJ this year, for example) there are some moves to make. (Admittedly this logic is more common in baseball than basketball.)

What this all leads to is that the “wish list” (regardless of timing) has to be based on teams that will likely under-perform expectations. That’s why I’d set my sights on GSW, CHI (let’s get Ben Gordon right now!) LAC, POR, and the like, and also keep an eye out for whoever surprises (negatively). (I’d at ATL to the list, but who know what they’ll do.)

$0.02

by RamVA on Aug 1, 2008 12:09 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

But
I think the deadline this year could be a make-or-break opportunity for us. If we’re looking strong (i.e. on track for 50++ wins) and other teams are facing some obvious conclusions (as with NJ this year, for example) there are some moves to make.

We have no assets to trade this year. Our young guys are even more unproven, our contracts aren’t expiring, etc. I’m not sure why this year is make-or-break.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That post is a fun read, mostly because the trades you propose are generally very one sided in favor of the Wiz. Like Ram said, a team would have to really be looking to desperately unload one of these players to take the deals you are proposing. KG and Gasol deals don’t happen every day, and apparently it is required that someone high in the gifting organization needs to have been a star player back in the day for the receiving organization.

I thought Atlanta was building around JJ. Okafor just got re-inked and you’ve got the team unloading him for spare parts. Marion? Maybe. Hamilton, Prince, Battier…doubt it.

I believe in Ernie, but I don’t think we can count on him swindling somebody.

by MR on Aug 1, 2008 12:30 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Meh

Atlanta’s going nowhere and Johnson is going to be 29 after the 2010 season. Assuming they’d re-sign him, they’d build around Smith and Horford, not JJ.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I would say that JJ will be there....

In the long run, even if they are not “building” around him.

I’d just bet that the Hawks want to keep around a veteran shooter who can play PG.

29 is not that old to me…...so I would contend that Joe Johnson is in their future plans.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Aug 1, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Also
apparently it is required that someone high in the gifting organization needs to have been a star player back in the day for the receiving organization.

I’m confused by what you’re trying to say. Are you saying that the unloading team needs a star player back for their unloading player? If so, what about Artest? Ray Allen? Rasheed Wallace in 04? Richard Jefferson? Vince Carter in 05? JRich in 07? Mike Bibby? That’s the caliber of player we’re talking about here, not a superstar like Garnett (or even Gasol for that matter).

The assumption I’m making is that all these players would be disgruntled and their teams would be trying to unload them. Sure, it’s a silly assumption to make right now, but the point is that these guys are candidates for being disgruntled, not that they will definitely be disgruntled.

Ram is right, a lot can happen between now and the 2009 offseason and the 2010 trade deadline, and we should definitely target underachieving teams. This is just one best guess at what might be available in 2010.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 1:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think he was getting at how . . .

. . . McHale “gave” KG away to his former team, and Jerry West influenced Memphis into letting the Lakers steal Gasol. But the way it’s phrased leaves some room for confusion.

by Bucky Katt on Aug 1, 2008 2:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Oh, yeah

Reading it again, that would make sense.

Of course, you’re talking about two trades. There are several others that don’t follow that paradigm.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 9:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

khrabb

I like the reasoning in the main post.

If the Wiz show measurable progress this year (say 47-35 and one round into the playoffs) then it will make sense to look for a fourth wheel to add in 2009-2010 when we have all those lovely expiring contracts to deal.

Putting the actual players aside, the likely trading partner would have to be a team that is looking at a longer time horizon to rebuild or build, but has a major asset to deal. In the East, I would guess that the teams most likely to be in that position are Charlotte, New Jersey, Atlanta, Milwaukee and the Knicks… Four other teams that are (like the Wiz) counting on having decent years in 2008-09 may find themselves in this position as well… Miami, Philadelphia, Chicago and Detroit.

I found it interesting that Philadelphia was omitted from the initial discussion BUT what if Iggy winds up being unable to produce sufficient outside offense to keep defenses from collapsing on Brand? He would be a perfect 2 guard here, yes?

by khrabb on Aug 1, 2008 8:18 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Last

This is the last year for Detroit… Many of their “assets” will be available next year in a fire sale if they don’t go to the Finals this year.

Detroit will be looking to retool. They’ll want expiring contracts (to go after the 2010 free agent class), and young talent.

by Rook6980 on Aug 1, 2008 11:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Unfortunately

I think Young or McGuire would have to take a mega leap for most of these trades to work. Besides Blatche, there isn’t a tremendous amount of upside to our bench, as they are either old and expensive, or young and improven. If Young or McGuire were at the same appraisal level of say a Carl Landry, I could see some of these trades working.

A level of trade that I think word work (though I wouldn’t like it from the Wiz’s perspective) is something like Thomas and Young for Mike Dunleavy. Indiana would clear the books of the contract, we would get a bit more scoring and a good sixth man.

Another trade which I would find realistic would be to trade Thomas and Young for Jamal Crawford. Same principle as above. Or one could trade the same combo for Nocioni from Chicago.

At Young’s current appraisal, I think this is the level of player we would be looking at, rather than a Okafor or a Joe Johnson.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 10:22 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Nocioni is an awful basketball player

We can do so much better than Nocioni or Crawford, and Dunleavy, provided he continues to play like he did last season, is right on the same level as many of these guys.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Is that a gut reaction

Or are you using his PER? Just interested….

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 11:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Guess who is who

All 07/08 numbers

Pts/36: 19.1
eFG%: 55
TS%: 60.5
PER: 17.3
ORtg: 115
Adj +/-: +8.2

Pts/36: 19.2
eFG%: 48.9
TS%: 53.5
PER: 17.3
ORtg: 109
Adj +/-: +10.37

Player 1 is Mike Dunleavy. Player 2 is Joe Johnson

It’s only one season, but provided he keeps it up, Dunleavy is just as good as many of the guys on this list.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 11:49 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

no no, I was asking about your dislike of Nocioni

Is the Dunleavy line because his use rate went through the roof, or because he finally turned it on?

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 11:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It went up a little

From 18.5 to 21.7, but his percentages jumped astronomically, whereas Johnson’s percentages fell off a ton with increased usage.

As for Nocioni, it’s fairly simple. He’s a ridiculous chucker, commits so many boneheaded turnovers, doesn’t rebound much, is an awful defender who roams like crazy and always leaves his man wide open at the wrong times, and, worst of all, has a contract that extends for four more seasons. He’s good at one thing: shooting. Otherwise, he’s pretty terrible and only looks good because he screams a lot. He’s the Bulls’ version of Etan; a guy who looks far better than he really is.

Poke around here for more. Needless to say, the level of hatred for Nocioni is through the roof at Blogabull.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Of course they are "improven"

They are second year players thus unproven players. That’s what make them prospects. But honestly, getting salary relief while getting a young player with talent (despite your objections we know NY and DOM have uber talent, at least NY) is a good trade. Look at some of the trades in the past.

Also, consider the context. Many of the most talented NBA players are becoming FA’s the next year. Clearing Cap Space has more value for that year then any year.

by zeke5123 on Aug 1, 2008 11:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Dude

McGuire is a 2nd Rd draft pick who hasn’t even shown flashes for extended periods in real NBA games. Yeah, he might be great. But I bet there isn’t much of a market for im. He is waaaaaay below someone like Leon Powe. Be realistic.

And sorry for the typo. I’ll attempt to reign in my errant typing so as to not offend. Neither player has been demonstrably good over a prolonged period, and it is arguable that a Nick Young is no better than a Louis Williams or other streaky shooters. You need to take off the rose covered glasses and take a realistic look at our bench players.

If you take a look at the KG trade, they received a young star in Jefferson, as well as a decent role player in Gomes. If you are targeting a team that needs cap relief, you have to look at their needs both salary and position wise. The Hawk FO might be morons, but if they lose Josh Smith, I doubt they are going to burn whatever bridges are left with their fans by trading Johnson.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

and I misused "rein"

Methinks I need more coffee and less Bullets.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Lou Williams just got five million a year

If Young is as good as Lou Williams, then he has more value than you think.

We’re not using the KG trade as a model, we’re using something like Rasheed in 2004, Richard Jefferson on draft day, Artest or Mike Bibby. None of these guys are on the same level as KG.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yes, but I wouldn't put him there yet

Another I just looked at is the Thomas/Young or Thomas/McGuire for either Diaw or Barbosa.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I initially had Diaw in this discussion

Left him out for space, but he’s interesting as well. My problem is the length of his contract, but that’s another option.

Either trade seems feasible.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Given that they just gave Okafor that deal . . .

Would Charlotte really get buyer’s remorse that quickly. And if they did because of say his balky back, would the Wizards really want him at that price for that length of time?

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Aug 1, 2008 11:29 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Pipe Dream

I don’t think we should trade for Douby. Hopefully we learned from the Chris Webber experience.

by Unselds on Aug 1, 2008 12:01 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Seriously, tho

I agree with the sentiment on this board. Those players sound nice, but the other team is going to have to be trading with a huge desperation to unload contracts and go for LeCrybaby. You absolutely can’t trade Haywood without getting a big in return, and Blatche is only worth something if he blows up, in which case you wouldn’t want to trade him. I LOVE Joe Johnson. Definitely qualifies for man crush status. You could tell he was great way back with the Celtics. He has a nice dagger swagger. I still have a gut feeling we missed an opportunity with Artest. My comments were blasted because “Artest doesn’t play the 2” and then for the purposes of this post we’re moving Caron to the 2. Same difference. Artest was had for a bag of chips. I wouldn’t hesitate to trade NY, Songalia and a pick for him.

by Unselds on Aug 1, 2008 12:08 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I doubt Sacramento goes for that

The key was that Bobby Jackson provided the same cap relief Artest would have given them if they let Artest walk. Songaila’s contract extends until 2011, eliminating that possibility.

The Kings end up taking on more salary to get rid of the superior player, which seems kind of silly.

We honestly didn’t have the pieces. If Songaila expired after next year, maybe that changes, but he doesn’t.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

wait...

we can delete comments?

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 12:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Nah, just me

I did it because my initial response was way too condescending, and I didn’t want to foster that type of discussion.

I’d only delete my own comments though. Never yours.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

focus of trades

It seems to me that what we really need to focus on is positions. Is Arena a point guard really? Is Butler a guard or small forward? Is Antawn really a PF? We are a dysfunctional roster in many ways. In my opinion, we need to decide between Butler and Arenas at off guard and trade the other for a star point guard. Then I think Jamison and Blatche need to be our starting forwards and I would try and make Jamison the small unless it totally screwed him up. He is 32 and can only keep up his level of play for a limited time going forward. This core needs a shakeup and I would have been very tempted to do it this offseason. Fan base would have gone ape but I think coming off the knee injuries we could have gone away from Arenas I love Jamison but at 32 he is not a core player in any team that we can put together to advance seriously in the playoffs.That level is two years away at least. Could we have not signed Arenas and Jamison this offseason(contracts total 31M per year) and replaced them with Maggette, Brand and Duhon (contracts total 32.5M) or Baron Davis and Elton Brand (32.8M) or Davis, Maggette and a big body like Voskuhl or Diop (32.4M?)

by Lucky Horseshoe on Aug 1, 2008 12:27 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

No
Could we have not signed Arenas and Jamison this offseason(contracts total 31M per year) and replaced them with Maggette, Brand and Duhon (contracts total 32.5M) or Baron Davis and Elton Brand (32.8M) or Davis, Maggette and a big body like Voskuhl or Diop (32.4M?)

We couldn’t have done that.

We’ve been over this before. Because we owned Arenas and Jamison’s Bird Rights, we could go over the cap to re-sign them. There’s a salary cap (58 million) and a luxury tax (71 million). Without Arenas and Jamison, our team salary was 43 million. Re-sign Jamison, and we only have six million to spend (and we wouldn’t have the mid-level exception). Re-sign Arenas, and we are right against the salary cap door and only have the mid-level and low-level exceptions.

The alternative to signing both would have been getting Brand and Beno Udrih or Davis and Diop, for example. Because of the salary cap rules, we could never have signed two of the big free agents this offseason no matter what. We only had enough for one and a mid-level player.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Also

The position thing is that big of a deal. Offensively, positions matter for a lot less in the Princeton. Defensively, we aren’t struggling because we’re undersized, we’re struggling because we’re undisciplined.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don't understand this

Would you consider Ron Artest a good player? Because he just got dumped for nothing but salary cap relief. Same goes for Camby. Straight salary dumps happen all the time. We aren’t looking to trade for Kobe Bryant either. We are looking at 2nd tier guys. Look, NY plus salary cap relief= someone slightly better then Camby or Aretest. Yes, that means the tier of players Prada was talking about.

by zeke5123 on Aug 1, 2008 12:30 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Joe Johnson isn't 2nd tier....(arguably in the the minds of Hawks mgmt and gans)

Okafor was just resigned, and I doubt Miami would trade to a division rival. If the Pistons are breaking up, than yes, those trades could be pulled off.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Aug 1, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Where's the evidence that JJ is in Atlanta's future plans?

He’s going to be 29 in 2010, hasn’t produced as anything more than a second-tier player and will likely command a pretty hefty salary, taking away money that should go to Josh Smith and Al Horford.

Atlanta’s management is really stupid, so anything is possible, but logically, it doesn’t make sense. The only way I see them retaining Johnson is if they continue to improve, but without Childress or any semblance of depth, I don’t see it.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 12:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Just to counter...

Where is the evidence that he’s not?

JJ was pretty much the only thread allowing the Hawks to keep up with the Celtics in the playoffs…..talking about his ability to be a big game scorer.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Aug 1, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Meh

Johnson wasn’t the only reason Atlanta pushed Boston to seven. What about Horford, Smith, Childress, Bibby, etc? And besides, we’re talking after next season, not right now.

There’s really no printed evidence either way, as far as I know. Logically, there’s reason to dispute things, but again, it’s a debatable point. This is about possibilities, not definites.

By the end of next season, though, I think there’s a pretty good possibility he’d be expendable, especially if Atlanta doesn’t go anywhere and is looking to rebuild.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

So Joe Johnson is 1st tier?

Along the likes of Kobe, Lebron, Dwight Howard, Wade, etc etc.? Really, I want to see you attempt to argue that. I really do. First off, he is 2nd tier. Secondly, trades like these salary dumps happen all the time for 2nd tier guys.

by zeke5123 on Aug 1, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You can tell me all the things that dont matter, size, positions, biorhythms, court surface, uniforms, but SOMETHING is wrong. We have a big three in the ballpark with any in the game and cant get out of the first round.

I forgot about the convoluted NBA cap and the bird rights rules. Silly post on my part . . .tho I still think it could be argued that we should have broken the team up. . . Brand and Duhon? All the trades in the world dont change this team without shaking up the core. The strategy is just keep drafting centers from the back half of the draft and hoping one of them strikes lightning or trade our garbage for someone else’s garbage and hope for the aforementioned lightning strike. Other than that we are stuck in the no mans land of too good to improve thru the draft and too bad to challenge for a title.

by Lucky Horseshoe on Aug 1, 2008 12:51 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I think the point of this post

Is that it doesn’t really do much to trade core players for core players. Dallas and Phoenix did that this year and ended up no better. Historically, I can’t remember many trades like that which really took teams to the next level. Off the top of my head, there’s Aguirre for Dantley in 1989 and (maybe) Drexler for Thorpe et al in 95. If you want to make a major stretch, there’s Eddie Jones for Glen Rice in 1999 and Webber for Richmond in 1999 (though Richmond was hardly a part of Sacramento’s core going forward).

No, the trades that put teams over the top are the ones where the contending team finds a disgruntled star and offers future cap relief/young talent. Think Sheed in 04, Dennis Rodman in 1996, Stephen Jackson in 2003, Barkley in 1993, etc.

If we dumped both Arenas and Jamison and signed Brand (no guarantee, because we only had 14-15 million in cap space) and used the MLE on Duhon (who sucks, but whatever), here’s our team.

PG: AD/Duhon/Brown
SG: Stevenson/Mason/Young
SF: Butler/McGuire
PF: Brand/Blatche/Songaila
C: Haywood/Thomas/Pecherov

Is that team any better than one with Arenas and Jamison, both now or in the future? At the very least, is that a contender for years to come?

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Aug 1, 2008 1:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Two players from Dook?

Effff no.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Aug 1, 2008 1:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

NOT breaking up a core just means you spend an NBA generation sitting in the middle without a way out. Pick your poison. I believe Elton Brand to be a legit power forward. probably no taller than Jamison but 20 poihnds heavier? I believe Jamison is a consistent player, good locker room guy. and a plus plus person. I believe Brand can dominate a game. I think Arenas is a shooting guard playing Point. I think he is a box office draw and a scorer and a charismatic guy who si off center somewhat. I am no Duhon fan except he does all the small things without rocking the boat.I will take that at the point. In fact I wouldnt really want Baronn David either but he was a free agent. If you want to bring in disgruntled players bring in artest, he is better than most of what youmenationed. But dont cry to me when you become the Dallas Cowboys and have players buying a house for the teams hookers and drugs if you are going to start bringing in problem players and hope they grow up. This is a flawed team and youwont fix the flaws by nibbling around the edges in my opinion.

by Lucky Horseshoe on Aug 1, 2008 1:11 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Seriously?

Come on.

• We’ve had major injuries to our star players the last two post-seasons. It is without a doubt worthwhile to see if this team when healthy can make a run.

• Camby was a steal. Those don’t come around that often. I don’t think it’s a prudent plan to count on getting one.

• Why is everyone so down on Jameson? The guy has proven himself capable of being the #1 player on a .500 team with no other help. Does anyone remember the 06-07 playoffs? The guy dominated. Last season he was our entire team for much of the year. Add our #1 and #2 guys back in the mix and let him be #3. He’d be one of the top third options in the league. I think his game will not suffer from age as much as some players might, so I wouldn’t throw him on the scrap heap yet.

• We’ve got our key players locked up. Tearing that apart and starting over now? Is that really what people here want?

by MR on Aug 1, 2008 3:01 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

How can you say that?

How can you say that Camby was a steal? Worse, how can you say that those trades don’t come around that often?

The Lakers got Gasol – for peanuts, and an expiring conract.
The Celtics got Garnett – for some young players, and a 2nd tier Center.
Houston got Artest – for an expiring contract , and peanut shells.

The point is that these types of trades happen all the time. AND, they’re going to happen even more frequently next year (2009-2010) as teams fall out of contention and look to dump salary and go after the 2010 FA class. The Wizards expiring contracts (Haywood, Thomas and Daniels) will be worth much more in trade…. I can actually envision several teams vying with each other

Also: let’s not forget that Memphis got the Spanish Michael Jordan from the Wizards for a non-existant draft pick. (hey, lighten up – it’s a joke)

by Rook6980 on Aug 1, 2008 11:43 PM EDT