"Mr. Pollin, I love you," Jamison replied.

by stlballa on Jul 2, 2008 9:50 AM EDT

.... "And I'm going to do everything possible to continue to make you happy."

That is how the press conference went yesterday. Just makes me feel so great. I love, well the love. Cheers to Abe:

"The 84-year-old Washington Wizards owner arrived via cart and was helped into a cushioned chair for a news conference for the newly re-signed Antawn Jamison. Although the body appeared frail, the voice and mind where strong and sharp."

"I'm getting a little old and a little sick," Pollin said. "But I'm still around, and I'm going to be around until we win the ... championship. I'm stubborn and hardheaded."

Who wouldn't want to be a part of that? We have a great owner, a great players coach, an awesome group of funny, good character players that seem to all get along, exception etan and b-wood, etan of whom in my last post i stated i would trade for a lobster buffet. GREAT CITY, all the players get huge stars to come to thier birthday parties, and without doubt some of the most loyal and knowledgeable fans. We are not spoiled but appreciative. and...we dont ask our players to play defense, how cool is that? haha. Seriously tho, we play a fun system, fast paced NBA ball with a street style that allows an openness for players to do what they feel at the given time. this aint no spurs team where you have to run down the court and set 4 pick and rolls, then feed the post and if not then you have to lick one of popovich's pockmarks . No, please deshawn jack a three with 18 seconds on the shot clock, haywood please try a turn around hook shot when you catch the ball out of the lane, caron take 12 contested 19 ft jumpshots in a game, just make half of them, and blatche go out their and get 6 fouls in 4 minutes. The comraderie is great, so what if the butt of all the jokes is "the pecherov". I feel they still include him in of the team antics, which a lot of other teams dont, you think spencer hawes and ron artest joke around? straight business...

well im just saying that i like the organization that the wizards are becoming, and having recently moved from a city with no nba team, i wouldnt trade this one for any other.

any comments, or things you like about our team that i forgot...or are their any other fans around the league that think you have it as lucky im saying we do?

we dont ask our players to play defense,

Stlballa

Yo! This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.

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I appreciate my hometown team as well....

Abe Pollin is a great man, but not a great owner….just my 2 pennies.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 2, 2008 10:03 AM EDT 0 recs

Yeah

It’s not very easy building a competitor when you aren’t able to spend above the salary cap.

A Time For Heroes,
It's not right for young lungs to be coughing up blood
And it's all
It's all in my hands
And its all up the walls
Well the stale chips were up and the hopes stakes were down
Until Kp came into Town!
'Sing it Petey!

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

Huh?

San Antonio sure does it fine. And I think you mean luxury tax when you say salary cap.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 2, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah

Only 11 teams went over the luxury tax this season, and of those teams, 4 missed the playoffs entirely and 4 more were one and done just like the Wiz. As the Knicks and Yankees have shown, spending lots of money and spending money well don’t always run hand in hand.

Bullets Forever: Where fancy numbers and YouTube come together.

by JakeTheSnake on Jul 2, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah that would be it

San Antonio also has Tim Duncan. They also picked up Manu Ginobli in the draft who is arguably a better player than anyone on the Wizards. Really there is no comparison to San Antonio’s talent per dollar on their top 3 players to the Wizards top 3.

The only way the wizards can win a title without blowing up the roster and picking up a real franchise player, like a Duncan, or a Chris Paul, is to trade expiring contracts in 2009 to pick up another quality player. Preferably a real power forward. This requires the wizards to go over the cap. I don’t see Arenas, Butler, and Jamison winning any titles, any time soon. Butler and Jamison are good complimentary players but they aren’t superstars. Besides Caron, who is a top 5 player at their position on the wizards? The makeup of this team basically ensures that they will be a one and done team, or maybe get to the second round if they don’t play Cleveland.

Secondly, I don’t think the wizards are great spenders. After all Etan Thomas is making 6.7mil this year and Arenas is not worth a max contract. I heard GIl has been offered 125mil for 6 years. that’s crazy. Seriously, I love his antics and all, but he’s not a leader, he doesn’t play defense, and is coming off 2 knee surgeries. He’s not worth that kind of money.

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

Bleh

Who cares about Top 5? And if you’re arguing that Etan Thomas was a bad signing, you’ll get no argument from anyone here.

With Gilbert, the market set his value as a max contract because that’s what Golden State offered (which is why I’m so pissed at Baron for opting out). We could let Golden State take him, but that doesn’t help us now or in the future, because we’re still not far enough under the cap to do anything significant until 2010. Worse players than Gilbert (Michael Redd, Joe Johnson, Rashard Lewis) make max money in this league.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 2, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up 0 recs

You don't championships

Without a quality guard and a quality post player.

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up 0 recs

that was what I meant by top 5

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up 0 recs

Oh and about Gil

Well he’s unrestricted free agent, if he wants to play here in DC he doesn’t need to take the highest offer. I wouldn’t mind paying him 2 or 3 seasons for 60 or 40 million but 6years is way too long. That basically ensures that you are screwed if you need to trade him. Preferably you could get him at like 12-14mil for 4 years or something like that.

Btw how does Caron only make 8mil a year?
I think Joe Johnson makes less than max, like 14 mil a year?

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

Its market value when they were a free agent. Joe Johnson signed that deal years ago.

All these people wanting Gilbert to give back 50M would never do the same. Thats what i see in your post, “what he should take…” Baron Davis is older than Gil and got 5 years but you can only manage 2 or 3 for Gilbert? If you don’t respond to the market you’ll be left with nothing.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 2, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up 0 recs

Caron signed a five-year deal

Before the 05/06 season (aka before he played a single game for the Wizards), and the deal kicked in before the 06/07 season because he was a member of the 2002 draft class. It was remarkable foresight by Ernie.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 2, 2008 3:57 PM EDT up 0 recs

He also got him for Kwambe Brown rofl

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up 0 recs

Well, what's your subjective criteria for each?

Arenas, when healthy, is a quality guard, and Jamison, though undersized, is a quality post player.

You don’t win championships without being the very best team. How you get to that point can be accomplished in a number of ways.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 2, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up 0 recs

When I think quality guard and post player

I think more along the lines of a Wade and Shaq. Or a Duncan and a Ginobli. Maybe even Payton and Kemp. That’s the bare minimum requirement.

Jamison is more of a small forward. He’s a tweener. Oh and he’s probably the worst defender on the team. He puts up great stats but I don’t think most of the league sees him as a power forward. I mean really Jamison’s game has almost no “power” to it. It’s mostly finesse and a combination of a crazy scoop shots. He has no back to the basket game.

Arenas is a scorer and that’s about it. Think about it this way. When Arenas went out for the season, the Wizards finished with a record pretty much the same as last year. Sure their bench got a little better, but they still lost supposedly the best player on their roster. To me that’s saying that Gilbert almost detracts from the quality of play than he adds.

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

Not sure I understand...

Are you trying to say that Jamison’s 20 points and 10 rebounds per night are less important because he does not get them with “power” moves..?

That Tim Duncan’s 19 points and 11 rebounds per game are somehow more “powerful” and therefore more important than Jamison’s scoop shots?

by Rook6980 on Jul 2, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up 0 recs

You have a good point....

But it’s not too often that Jamison commands a double team. It happens with Duncan a ton.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 2, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up 0 recs

Completely Disagree

I mean really Jamison’s game has almost no "power" to it. It’s mostly finesse and a combination of a crazy scoop shots. He has no back to the basket game.

Almost all of Jamison’s crazy scoop shots start with his back to the basket. He really excels in his post-up game, IMO. My beef with Jamison is that he’ll go through stretches of a game where he thinks he’s a shooting guard and he keeps jacking up 3s early in the shot clock. His best games are when he’s committed to the low post.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 8:38 AM EDT up 0 recs

Rebounds

What about the rebounding? Jamison averaged over 10 boards a game…

Isn’t that what you WANT your Power Forward to do? Average double digits in rebounds…??

Here are the Forwards in the entire League that averaged double digits in rebounds:

1 Tim Duncan
2 Emeka Okafor
3 Lamar Odom
4 Carlos Boozer
5 Zach Randolph
6 Shawn Marion (is he a SF or a PF?)
7 Antawn Jamison

Other than Tim Duncan, there’s not a player on that list I would trade Jamison for…

You don’t pull down 10 rebounds a night unless you are banging inside… playing a “power” game in the paint.

I just don’t understand it when I read posts that denigrate the “stats” that Jamison puts up… that somehow Elton Brand’s 20pts and 10 rbs would be better for the Wizards than Jamison’s 20/10…. AND ignoring all the other intangibles that Jamison brings to the team (leadership, presence, off-court demeanor, community service, etc…)

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 9:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

Don't forget

You’re thinking like a coach, not an owner. They’re running a business and ultimately the point is to make money. They just offered a max deal to one of the few players who draw fans to the arena.

Plus, this is the NBA its easier to find the right mix around elite players than it is to get them in the first place. So you don’t just let them walk for nothing if you can help it.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 2, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up 0 recs

You are right

But I was just pointing out that signing Gilbert to that much money is not a good move basketball-wise.

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up 0 recs

Meh

Matter of opinion, I suppose. If Gilbert returns to his winter-2006 form, I don’t see how he’s not worth a max contract.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 2, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up 0 recs

Right but this is summer of 2008

The thing is he’s a volume scorer, he needs a lot of shots to be effective, he can’t play within a system. I don’t know. If he becomes at least average on defense, and he has that ability, he’s worth it. I’m still iffy on signing him for 6 years. He looked terrible in the playoffs. If he continues to get injured or plays like he did in the playoffs, how are you going to get him any value out of him? Who is going to trade for a max contract with 3 or 4 years on it? We’d end up having to buyout the contract and it’d be stuck on our cap for all 6 years. Fun.

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up 0 recs

But again

Whether someone’s worth a max contract is determined by the market, and the market thinks he’s worth a max contract because Golden State offered it to him.

If nobody offered Arenas a max contract and the Wizards gave it to him anyway, these arguments would be more valid.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 2, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah you are right

Basically to get him now you have to offer a max contract. I just don’t think he’s worth it from a basketball perspective and risk perspective. I’m sure some teams would sign him for that much just to attract fans though.

by Dheepan on Jul 2, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up 0 recs

But

Ernie Grunfeld obviously thinks that a max contract for Arenas is worth it from a Basketball AND a risk perspective.

AND – the Warriors Management also thought it was worth it….

AND – the Sacramento Management said they would “do whatever it takes” including “trading our entire team” to get Arenas – they obviously thought it was worth if from a Basketball and risk standpoint.

by Rook6980 on Jul 2, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up 0 recs

Again, I Disagree

They’re running a business and ultimately the point is to make money. They just offered a max deal to one of the few players who draw fans to the arena.

Link. If anybody has solid objective evidence of a big name player drawing more fans to a team’s stadium to watch a loser than a bunch of no names who win tons of games, I’d love to see it. If the Wizards win more games and/or advance deeper in the playoffs without Arenas, then I promise that there will be no drop-off in attendance. The best basketball-wise decision is always the best financial decision for a franchise.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 8:10 AM EDT up 0 recs

I was there

Why not load the question even more? No one is talking about big name players who lose a ton of games. We’re talking about Gilbert Arenas and the Wizards who have been .500 or better.

You want proof, go to games. See the difference in the crowd when Gilbert is healthy (not playoff games) and when he was out. There’s paid attendance and then there’s butts in the seats. Otherwise you might be waiting some time for the Wizards to open their books and show you the difference in concessions sales when Gilbert is out.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 8:41 AM EDT up 0 recs

So You're Saying

That if we don’t improve the team’s record and/or playoff performance, then losing Gilbert is a bad financial decision. In that case, I agree with you. People would rather see a team win 42 games a season and get dumped in the first round of the playoffs with a big scorer than see a team win 42 games a season and get dumped in the first round of the playoffs with a team full of nobodies. But those of us who might want an alternative to Arenas are arguing for something better, not something the same. If the Wizards win 50+ games and/or advance deep in the playoffs, then the players we have will become stars and people will show up to watch.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 9:05 AM EDT up 0 recs

No

The team was winning at a better rate than last year with a healthy Gilbert but drew less fans when he was hurt. We had a winning team with 2 all stars but drew less fans… How do the Oakland Athletics ‘splain that?

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up 0 recs

I Disagree

The Wizards last year were on pace to win well over 50 games before Antawn got hurt. They were at one point the best team in the East and their coach was in the All-Star Game. After Gilbert got hurt, the Wizards dropped like 10 out of 11 games and fell-off record-wise, but for most of the season they were a much better team than this past season. This past season they were never first in the East, yet still managed to win 43 games, and their attendance was only down an average of 412 fans per game.

I don’t need the Oakland A’s to explain that to me.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up 0 recs

Michael Jordan

MJ in a Wiz uniform – 2002-03 season. The Wizards sucked (did not go to the playoffs).... but they were #2 in Attendance in the entire League that year, at almost 21,000 per game. It was MJ and a collection of stiffs.

The next year, the attendance dropped to 15,000….. MJ put 6,000 extra fans in the seats… (probably more, because we don’t know how many of those 15K were season tickets, purchased while MJ was here)...

Then MJ left… attendance plummeted.

After Arenas joined the club, attendance rose again… to it’s current level of about 18,000 per game…. They didn’t go to the playoffs that year, but they were playing an exciting brand of basketball. There was a buzz again. This kid, Arenas, was exciting, and the fans started coming back.

The Washington market is a different animal than a standard NBA fan base. Washington DC is transient… having a large Federal Government base… and a large transient population. Those transients are NOT Wizards fans… they grew up elsewhere. They’re Yankee fans, Celtic fans, Cub fans, Raider fans…..

A part of that 15,000 fans that stayed AFTER Michael Jordan left were the die-hard basketball fans….. The ones that left, were the bandwagonners…. the hype followers…. the drama groupies. You know the ones I’m talking about…. The business guys… The Washington pundits… The Politicians… The big wigs..

You don’t get those people in the seats unless there’s a draw, other than basketball… A draw like Arenas – who creates buzz…. a draw that creates drama…. someone that attracts actresses, rap artists, politicians, – - – you know, those people are not there for the GAME, they’re there to “be there”.... to be where it’s “happening”...

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 8:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

You're Looking at the Wrong Variable

The Wizards won 37 games in 2002-03 and drew 827,093. That’s 22,354 fans for every win the Wizards had. In 2003-04, the Wizards won 25 games and drew 645,363 fans. That’s 25,815 fans for every win the Wizards had. So in reality, the Wizards actually did better in attendance per win ratio without MJ than they did with him. Care to use another example?

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 9:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

Fans per win?

Fans per win? That’s a BS stat … and you know it… Come on cuppettcj…. Usually your posts are rational and well thought out….

2002-03 the Wizards drew 827,093 (20,173 per game)

THE NEXT YEAR, they only drew 645,363 (15,703 per game)

You said show you “solid objective evidence of a big name player drawing more fans to a team’s stadium to watch a loser”

Well – there’s solid, objective evidence that a big name player (Michael Jordan) drew more fans to Washington Wizards games to watch a losing team…

Want more evidence…..OK, how about road games.. Let’s just leave the Washington fans out of it… and look objectively at the attendance figures for the Wizards on the road:

2002-03 season – 19,311 per game for Wizards road games (100% sell outs)
2003-04 season – 16,008 per game for Wizards road games (2nd worst in the League behind only Golden State)

Michael Jordan put more than 3,000 extra fans in the seats at Wizards ROAD GAMES….

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 9:33 AM EDT up 0 recs

And He Helped the Wizards Win More Games!

How is that BS! My point was that winning is what matters! He made the Wizards a better team in the win column, and that is first and foremost the reason why more fans came to the stadium, to watch a team compete and win games. Admittedly, he was a 6-time NBA champion and the greatest player to ever put on an NBA uniform, so I’m not saying that he wasn’t a factor. In fact, he is an extreme case. But even so, fans came back after MJ once the Wizards started winning games! In Arenas’s first season, attendance plummeted because the Wizards were only a 25 win team! The next season, the Wizards win 45 games and make the playoffs, and the attendance went up. So you’re saying that the fans came not to watch a playoff caliber team, but to watch a star, the same star that they sat home for the very previous season?

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up 0 recs

Keep moving those goalposts...

Fans per win, thats rich.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up 0 recs

What's So Rich About It?

Are you trying to argue that wins don’t have any affect on fan attendance? Now that would be rich.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up 0 recs

"Fans per win" is bogus

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 12:00 PM EDT up 0 recs

I hate to say it

But I gotta agree with Jheiser3. I’m not sure where you were going with “fans per win.”

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 3, 2008 12:01 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'll Try to Explain

Fans per win is not an attempt to demonstrate a straight line correlation between wins and attendance, I rather think it’s a curve. Suppose a team goes 0-82. It’s attendance will still be above 0. But I do think that attendance and team performance have a very strong correlation. For example, if another team goes 82-0, I guarantee you that they’re selling out every game, I don’t care who’s on it. I also guarantee that several of the players on this hypothetical team would be considered “star” players by mid-season, even if they were unheard of the season before.

My point with “fans per win” is that you could more easily argue that attendance was greater in MJ’s last season because of the team’s performance (i.e. wins) than because of his star power. Comparing a 37 win team’s attendance with a 25 win team’s attendance is not a fair comparison. You would expect a team that wins more games to have more fans show up.

A better comparison is to take two seasons for the same team in which both seasons produced the same number of wins, but with one season having a star player and the other season without that star player. The extra fans that showed up would then be represented as extra “fans per win”. In other words, the team performance is the same, but more fans come out anyway because of the certain star player.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

But

Isn’t that what happened these past two years? The Wizards went from 41 wins with Arenas to 43 without him, yet their attendance was down.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 3, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

A Fairer Comparison

But still one wrought with difficulties because of the way those two seasons played out. Remember, at one point last year the Wizards were the best team in the East. I’m willing to bet that that’s when their attendance peaked, or at least very closely preceded the peak. When Arenas went down, the team still had a slightly better winning percentage than they would the next season.

However, I admit that the correlation is not perfect because it does take some time for perception to catch up with reality. It took awhile for the casual fan to realize that the Wizards were still a good team after Gil went down this season. The perception, even among us here at BF, was that the Wizards were going to be much worse. If we could look at game by game attendance numbers, I’d be willing to bet that attendance was worst this past season in December, right after Arenas went down.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up 0 recs

Difficult

Also difficult because of the way the Wizards sell their season ticket packages….

Deeply discounting a 2-year plan… therefore attendance may not drop immedately upon when a player gets injured, or a new player arrives…

Again – almost impossible to correlate players to attendance…. EXCEPT in the case of Michael Jordan in 2002-03

Pretty difficult to argue that the Wizards drew the 2nd most fans in the entire League, based on their “wins” that year…

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up 0 recs

But what about wins per fan?

How does that correlate?

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 3, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up 0 recs

That Would Assume

That fan attendance affects team performance. I think that would be like putting the cart before the horse.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

Oh, and By the Way

The Wizards had Gilbert Arenas in 2003-04, the first season without MJ when the attendance plummeted.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 9:21 AM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah - but

Arenas had not yet made a name for himself yet, either…

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up 0 recs

and

Had not yet hit game winners….
Hadn’t yet electrified the fans with 30, 40 and 50 point games yet.
Had not yet gotten the team to the Playoffs.

It takes time to create a “hero” image… Coming over from GS, Arenas was just another PG in the League. Nothing special …......................... yet…

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 9:38 AM EDT up 0 recs

He puts fans in the seats

Arenas is one of the few players in the League that puts fans in the seats (Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Iverson, ... hope I’m not forgetting someone) ... to say otherwise, is denying facts.

by Rook6980 on Jul 3, 2008 9:42 AM EDT up 0 recs

All of Those Players...

... are stars because they have made their teams winners. A better comparison for Gilbert Arenas might be Tracy McGrady. Both of those two make their teams better, but aren’t in the same category as a Kobe, Wade, or even a LeBron or Iverson.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up 0 recs

Iverson

Iverson is the perfect analogy because he has all of ONE Finals appearance and even that was mostly because of ridiculous foul disparities against the Bucks in the EC finals. He’s won nothing really, yet he brings fans to games at home and on the road.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up 0 recs

And His Teams Are Always in the Playoffs

Just like Gilbert. Of course, foul disparities would have never propelled Gilbert to the NBA finals, because he has never even reached the EC Finals. I’ll stick with my Tracy McGrady analogy, I still like that one better.

Let’s look at the exact attendance difference in Denver when they got Iverson, going from 702,555 before Iverson to 706,437 after him. That’s an average of 95 extra tickets a game. They also had a slightly better record than the year before, adding an extra W to the win column. This past season, they added 135 extra fans per game, because they won 50 games.

My point is that winning has always been a much bigger factor than “star” players. Star players become stars because they help their teams win more games. Star players lose their star statuses if they don’t help their teams win more games. Gilbert is a star because he makes the Wizards a better team, and before Caron developed, Gilbert was the biggest reason that the Wizards were a playoff team. If you’re trying to argue that star players have some effect on attendance, I’ll grant you that. But to compare that effect with the effect of winning basketball games is no comparison, IMO.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up 0 recs

but the Sixers in

02/03 they win 48 games, 4th in attendance.
03/04 They won 33 (-15) games and finished 4th in the NBA in attendance. No playoffs.
04/05 they won 43 (+10) games but attendance declined and they ranked 10th even though they went to the playoffs.
05/06 they won 38 (-5) games but attendance dropped to 21st in the league.
06/07 Won 35 (-3) games, Iverson is traded after 15 games, they dropped 60K in attendance.
07-08 they win 40 (+5) games for the first time since 03-04 but attendance declines again, by 6K.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 12:30 PM EDT up 0 recs

Look at the Actual Attendance Numbers

01/02 – First season after the 76ers went to the NBA Finals, attendance exploded by 35K. Record only an average 43-39.
02/03 – Attendance drops back 35K to it’s championship season level. Probably based on their record the season before. Record improves to 48-34.
03/04 – Record falls greatly to 33-49. Attendance falls 20K below their championship season.
04/05 – Record improves back to 43-39, but attendance continues to fall, this time by 50K. Note that it’s still 10th in the league, but the 76ers are no longer considered an elite EC team, even with Iverson.
05/06 – Record falls back to 38-44, attendance drops another 60K. Mediocre and/or losing seasons finally catch up with the 76ers.
06/07 – Another drop in both record and attendance. Attendance declines another 60K.
07/08 – First full season without Iverson. At one point, the 76ers are 18-30. Our board bemoans our first loss to this team. The only thing worse than watching a bad team is watching a bad team without a star. Attendance is probably worst around January/February. But then, low and behold, the 76ers go on a huge winning streak. The “other” AI starts to become known as a star. Attendance, I’m willing to bet, is at its highest in March/April. Final attendance is still down slightly for the season, but only by about 142 fans per game.

So yes, you’re right when you argue that my correlation is neither perfect nor immediate. Perception has to catch up to reality. But watch the 76ers attendance next season. Assuming that they are as good as they were the last two months of last season, I think a lot more fans show up. Even if they aren’t as good, I bet a lot more fans show up in November/December, based on the reputation they earned at the end of last season. But I wouldn’t be able to argue that they did it without “stars”, because the players they have now are already starting to become known as stars.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up 0 recs

Sorry

By “championship season” I meant the 2000-01 season when they went to the NBA Finals.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up 0 recs

Exactly

Now you’re starting to understand. To re-quote Michael Lewis:

All the A’s marketing studies showed that the main thing fans cared about was winning. Win with nobodies and the fans showed up, and the nobodies became stars; lose with stars and the fans stayed home, and the stars became nobodies.

Gilbert Arenas became a star because he took a perennial loser and helped make them a playoff team. That process admittedly takes a little time, but winning is the prime factor.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up 0 recs

Stop it

Stop with all this “evidence” and “proof”. Its making it harder for him to change the criteria/argument every time.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up 0 recs

Come on guys, calm down

I think cuppettcj’s point is simply that fans will support a winning team, and if the Wizards truly believe they’ll have a better team if they sign-and-trade Arenas, they should not consider the fan angle. He has no quarrel with saying that having a 42-win team with Arenas will draw more fans than a 43-win team without him.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 3, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

Thanks

For seeing my point. For the record, I like the debate.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up 0 recs

I know

Keep going, just trying to make sure everything’s civil.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 3, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up 0 recs

What Argument Did I Change?

I started with wins have a much bigger impact on fan attendance than “star” players and that players become stars because of helping their teams win more games. I believe I have held consistent to that argument.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up 0 recs

You keep rephrasing my or others’ arguments then speak to that strawman.

Gilbert Arenas draws fans by being on the court. Rook has shown you data to support this position I’ve posted data from Iverson/Sixers that contradicts your position. Very few players draw casual fans to the arena. Gilbert is one of those players.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 3, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up 0 recs

How Did I Rephrase Arguments?

I’m confused. Explain what you mean.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 3, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

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