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Etan Thomas update/discussion

Tiny by Rook6980 on

UPDATE, by Pradamaster: Since this is news about Etan's status, and since DWF raised the issue, let's use this thread to discuss Etan's potential role on the team next year.  Should he be a significant part in the rotation under any circumstances?  Would it be really bad if he wasn't traded?  Discuss.

-----------------------------------------

Etan Thomas is expected to take part in the minicamp and will scrimmage with the Summer League team.

Etan "missed all of last season after undergoing surgery to repair a leaky aortic valve last fall. Thomas received clearance to resume noncontact training in January, but his sternum didn't fully heal in time for him to resume contact drills and return to live action. Now fully cleared, he will scrimmage with the summer league squad. -- The Washington Times"

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors

That's good news - - - - - well.......... at least it's NEWS... We have not heard anything about Thomas since he shut it down in practice earlier this year.

Yo! This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.

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He better not mess with Brenden

He might get punched in the chest. And that wouldn’t be good for him.

by Unselds on Jul 11, 2008 12:32 PM EDT   0 recs

threadjack

is there anyone else around here that thinks thomas has some value to the wiz? sure, he’s overpaid, but i seem to remember him being a pretty big contributor in the playoff series against chicago, and the team looked much worse once he hurt his abdomen again in the miami series. the guy is never healthy during the playoffs it seems, but i think we could have used him in the cleveland series to go in there and bang and throw his body around. to me, he’s also more skilled than most bangers in the league and i think he could have a valuable role for the wizards. i don’t think it’s his fault EJ wasn’t able to properly manage him and BTH. i look forward to having the guy back and i think he’d improve the team. am i the only one though? everyone else seems to want to trade him.

by DarrellWalkerFan on Jul 11, 2008 1:15 PM EDT   0 recs

and don't forget

he did beat Haywood out for the starting center position. If they can avoid having another slap fight, I think that Thomas will keep pushing Haywood to keep the intensity he showed last year. Hoever, Eddie needs to be just as careful to not keep Haywood on such a tight leash. He infuriates me more than any other Wizard, especially when he gets a case of “stone hands” down low, but his improvement (especially at the FT line) are inargurable.

Plus, he dunks on Cavs, whats not to like?

http://blog.syracuse.com/cnypros/medium_etan.jpg

If Thomas is healthy, I think 12-15 of minute burn is in order.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Unfortunately, Competition From Etan Has a Negative Impact on Brendan

When Brendan was competing for the starting job, he tended to sulk and his numbers went down, as well as the Wizards’ record.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 11, 2008 3:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thats true!

But I think that is more a comment on Brendan’s personality, and not Thomas’ ability. I agree that Eddie’s “bench, butt, head” tactics don’t work with Brendan, but c’mon, he has to grown up at some point!

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You know what....

F-ing grow up then! If that’s still the case, which I believe it not to be, they I definitely don’t want a guy like that in the trenches with Tuff Juice and Gentleman Jamison.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 11, 2008 4:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I would like to go through an entire season without hearing how Brendan ripped out another one of Etan’s cornrows. But we don’t know…yet, because Brendan had the job all to himself last year.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 4:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree.

Brendan was upset at inconsistent minutes. He had a problem with Etan because he felt Eddie was playing favorites. It wasn’t that he didn’t like competition. It was that he felt he had won the competition, only to have Etan get the reward aka PT.

I don’t know about you, but when I beat someone I want to see my hand raised, feel my trophy and, in an Olympic year, my flag raised and my anthem played. If someone else was on that top platform I’d flip my S.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 4:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait, that doesn't make any sense....

Etan won the starting job…and Brendan sulked. (see cuppettcj’s post) He bitched and he moaned about it, but Etan BEAT him for the job in camp. Brendan did not raise Etan’s hand. And if we are going to make character judgements, both of them have been babiesin the press after both their fights AND their contract signings.

Thomas made a good point after their third fight:

“San Antonio just beat us by what seemed like a hundred but I guess all that matters to him is he didn’t get the minutes he thinks he deserves, so he’s mad, which results in a displacement of anger,” Thomas said.”

Brendan’s minutes in THAT game: 21:12
Thomas’: 22:31

I mean C’MON. Stop bitching and play the game.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

whats worse

Whats worse than having to watch as a player that I feel I’m better than gets my minutes? Losing while I sit instead of being out there doing something about it. I don’t see it as a bad thing that BH got upset. He felt as though Etan was getting minutes in part because of whatever personal BS there is between Eddie and Brendan. It never should have gotten physical though.

btw, Non-competitors don’t get into fights.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

c'mon

Etan beat him out in camp. Based on performance. Players don’t dictate their minutes, coach’s do. But instead of accepting that, you know, he might have to motivate himself, Brendan sulked. As soon as you have players deciding how much burn they get, than the inmates run the asylum.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 8:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And perform

This is the NBA. The inmates have been running things for a long time. Haywood didn’t demand minutes, he told Eddie how to get the best out of him. Brendan was right.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

its not BTH's job

to decide his own role. If McGee were to become a monster in a year, we wouldn’t be sitting around saying “no no no, thats Brendan’s job.” We are talking about an OK center, and his slightly less than OK backup. When you let an average center dictate how things are going to be, you are setting a pretty terrible example. What would you say if Nick Young demanded the starting SG position this year. I doubt you would say “by golly, if thats what it takes to get the most out of him, than lets give it to him.” No, you would make him earn. Just like Brendan should have to earn his starting role, and not just assume its his.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 8:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You’re right that’s its the coach’s job to get the most out of his players. Eddie didn’t do that until he had no choice. No wonder Ernie won’t go to bat for him. And when he finally did, Brendan proved to be right. EJ has to get past the personality conflict and put the best guy on the floor. If you’re a coach with a no knucklehead policy you’re coaching a JV high school team. Brendan is the better player. What exactly did Etan earn by being the lesser of the two?

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 10:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

also

if brendan didn’t like the competition, or wanted an ensured starting job, he had the chance to take his services elsewhere. he knew the situation when he resigned.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 8:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Did he?

Or did Eddie pick Etan to get into Brendan’s head and motivate the better player?

All I read from Brendan was that he would do the job, he just needed consistent minutes to play consistently. His stats bear that out. They also show that Eddie would use him 20 minutes one night and 7 in the next game when he had Etan to bring in. Eddie was yanking him in and out and he never knew how much time he’d get. Given that what BH said was backed up by his play, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not disagreeing with Brendan's improved play

or the fact that EG yanked around his minutes. But Brendan was the instigator in one of those slap fights, and the situation had become so untenable that Ivan thought the Wizards priority last offseason was to UNLOAD Brendan. And he was just as surprised when management decided not to do that.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 4:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No Offense...

But Ivan seems to be surprised rather easily and quite often for a reporter.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ha!

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 4:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sorry

But Brendan’s play has NOT improved… it’s about the same as the previous 4 years… The only thing that has noticably improved is his Free Throw shooting.

The ONLY difference last year were the number of minutes he was given.

Look at his per40 numbers, and you’ll see that he’s remarkably conisistent – AND better than Thomas

by Rook6980 on Jul 11, 2008 6:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We Need Etan

So many times we brought Blatche in off the bench and he was just not big enough or strong enough to bang with other teams centers (E.g. Shaq, Howard, Big Z). We need his depth and ability to bang with bigs. Blatche brings different skills, but when we are getting killed on the boards by the Cavs, and giving up second and third chance points, we need a guy that can come in a grab a few rebounds, block a few shots, and try to dunk on everyone. Clearly he is not a starter in the league, but he definitely has value, and I see him being an important part of this team, especially when Haywood gets in foul trouble, or the other team has a huge center. Plus the more veterans you can bring off you bench in the playoffs the better (E.g PJ Brown, who played in some big spots for the Cs)

by Blatche4MVP on Jul 11, 2008 1:40 PM EDT   0 recs

However

If Jordan starts playing mind games with Haywood, and puts Etan in the starting lineup he becomes a liability. That is not Etan’s fault, if used correctly I am excited about having him on our team

by Blatche4MVP on Jul 11, 2008 1:41 PM EDT   0 recs

Backup

Used correctly, Etan certainly has value for the Wizards THIS YEAR.

Haywood has hopefully proven to everyone (including Eddie Jordan) that, given Starters minutes, he can consistently produce. He’s more durable than Thomas. He has a better Offensive game than Thomas. He’s more intimadating than Thomas. He blocks more shots and more importantly, changes more shots than Thomas. He’s a better one-on-one defender than Thomas (except against Dwight Howard)... AND NOW he can shoot free throws.

OTOH – Etan Thomas does give the Wizards something they lacked last year – a big body to bring off the bench for 15-20 minutes to backup Haywood. Another 6 fouls to use on Howard, LeTravel, etc… ; and an effective rebounder in the paint.

Of the other Center prospects:
McGee looks like a project, and could be the eventual backup – but right now he’s too raw.
Blatche did an admirable job jast year, even when he was overmatched, out muscled, and banged around… but his natural position is PF.
Pecherov has not shown that he can guard anyone yet.
Songaila – please, NO

Thomas’ greatest value, however, will be NEXT year.. When the Wizards can trade his Large Expiring contract to someone for a proven piece… Perhaps the final piece they need to compete for the Championship ( Just like in 1977-78 when the Bullets picked up Bobby Dandridge )

by Rook6980 on Jul 11, 2008 1:58 PM EDT   0 recs

Repost of My Comment From the Matt Barnes FanPost
He has a better Offensive game than Thomas.

Here is what I wrote in the other thread:

Prada Did a Couple of Comparisons Between the Brendan and Etan

Here’s one link. Here’s another. Both of these comparisons came before Brendan’s big improvement on offense this season.

Prada’s bottom line – Brendan was better defensively but Etan was better offensively. Looking at the numbers myself, I agree that at the time (2006-07) Etan was a better player offensively and a better rebounder. In 2006-07, Etan had a 57.4% FG%, a 58.5% TS%, and averaged 11.4 points per 36 minutes, compared to 55.8% FG%, 57.1% TS%, and 10.6 pp36m for Brendan. Etan also averaged 10.9 rebounds per 36 minutes while Brendan only averaged 9.9 rp36m.

Brendan improved his pp36m to 13.7 last season, while seeing his FG% fall to 52.8% but his TS% rise to 58.2%. But Haywood’s rebounding also fell to 9.3 rp36m, so it appears that Brendan is still an inferior rebounder to Etan, assuming Etan makes a full recovery and plays like he did in 2006-07.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jul 11, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

To be fair

Again, that was before Brendan’s breakout this season. I haven’t really broken down the actual numbers, but Haywood is at least comparable offensively now.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 11, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Poet

He has no value until he proves he can play, or when he has one year left on his contract that will really interest teams.

We all saw where our depth down low was hurt this past season…..so Etan has very nice potential for value.

Of course, all of this is contingent on A) him actually being able to play (dude’s game has to be rusty, much less the fragile sternum and then B), team chemistry.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 11, 2008 2:01 PM EDT   0 recs

I second rook and DWF's comments

For me having him spell Brendan and having Blatche come in at 4 instead of 5 makes Etan potentiall very valuable. But then will Eddie Jordan do the right thing or not? And will Etan and Haywood make piece or at the very least be civil and stay the hell out of each other’s way? I can only hope so, because I may not be a big fan of the Poet’s political views, but I am a big fan of the Poet as a person and I want to see him fully healthy and playing well for us. I think that will happen and I hope it happens while he is a Wizard.

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Jul 11, 2008 2:12 PM EDT   0 recs

Only if we use him the right way

Moving Blatche to the 4 would work well this year, but then after we (presumably) unload Etan to a team that needs a body and expiring contract next year, Blatche and McGee might be fighting for time with neither developed enough to spell the 5 for a 30-year-old Haywood.

Expiring contracts will be worth so much with the free agents coming out when Etan’s is up that I think it will be valuable to keep him on board. But if we do that I think we have to assure Haywood that he’s the clear-cut starter and still rotate Blatche in some at the 5 so he gets more experience there. But if we start giving Etan 20+ minutes a game, Haywood falters, and our young guys don’t get to develop at all, then he shouldn’t stay.

by Juice over Whine on Jul 11, 2008 3:22 PM EDT   0 recs

He does

I think Etan does have a role on this team. If he were making 3M a year we’d be happy with him getting 15+ minutes a night and doing the little things. Any discussion of his value is tainted by his ridiculous contract. I could see him pairing with Blatche in the front court giving the second unit more shot blocking than they get from Songalia.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 5:00 PM EDT   0 recs

I never understood the value of Etan Thomas

Ok, he’s a decent rebounder and a big (well, not tall, but solid) body. But I never understood why he got PT over Haywood – it drove me nuts. Not only is he a terrible defender – always leaving his man to attempt to block some shot he’s got no chance at getting and allowing the offensive rebound, but his offense is pretty terrible too. He’s got some moves, I’ll give him that, but I’ve never seen anyone brick as many open layups as Etan. His range extends about 3 inches from the rim.

At the same time, I know we need a bigger body than Blatche or Songaila to be the backup 5.

If he plays more than 15 minutes a game, its gonna be a long season.

The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.

by mamemimo on Jul 11, 2008 5:20 PM EDT   0 recs

EJ needs to tell BTH

He is the man! He is the starter, there is no competition, he just needs to improve on what he did last year. BTH works hard, he doesn’t need the distraction of competition.

by zeke5123 on Jul 11, 2008 7:33 PM EDT   0 recs

You're right

it would be a shame if professional basketball players had to compete for their starting jobs. Their fragile ego might break.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 8:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Player's coach

For a players coach Eddie has had an awfully hard time getting on the same page with 2 of his starters. You could add GM into that too I guess.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 11, 2008 8:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe

And I assume you’re talking about Gil, who isn’t exactly known for his maturity. And Brendan has a history of dogging it. I don’t see why the blame squarely falls on EJ in that case.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 8:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Seems like the players have a hard time getting on the same page with their coach.

Isn’t that the way it should be? Players having to adhere to the coach doing his job?

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 11, 2008 8:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would assume so...

or we might as well let Gil become player/coach.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 8:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OK

Then how about WINS…

In 2006-07 when Eddie was jerking Haywood in and out of games, Haywood’s game suffered….

But, when due to circumstances (Thomas foul trouble, Thomas injury, etc…) Haywood was given minutes, he performed… When he was given 27 minutes or more, he averaged 9ppg & 9rpg with 63% shooting… and the Wizards were 18 – 8 in those games…

When Haywood was given 35 minutes or more, again because of Thomas injury or foul trouble, Haywood responded with 11ppg and 10 rpg on 64% shooting – and the Wizards were 9 – 3 in those games.

On the other hand, the same CANNOT be said about Thomas… When given more playing time, he did not produce better results – and in fact the Wizards were 2 – 8 in games in which Thomas played 27 minutes or more.

It was painfully obvious to most people. I remember being on Ivan’s blog that year, and dozens of posters complaining when Haywood was not in the game in the 4th quarter as the Wizards allowed layup after layup to let the other team back in a game.

by Rook6980 on Jul 11, 2008 8:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My issue

was never whether Haywood was the better starter, it was his attitude over assuming he had a starting role, and then sulking when he got beaten out. It sets a dangerous precedent to allow your fifth best player to start undermining your authority.

His rebounding for a center is poor, and his offensive skills don’t exactly set the world on fire.

I mean, its Brendan freaking Haywood, and Etan Thomas. I would rather we upgraded the center position over either one of them.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 9:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

we also

has the second lowest PER for the center position in the southeast conference, with Haywood getting the bulk of the minutes.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 11, 2008 9:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think this is the NBA where both sides have to give a little to get through the schedule with their sanity in tact. You know former coaches that tried to run the kind of ship you’re talking about, legendary burnouts like Kevin O’Neill and Eric Musselman. When did Eddie become a hall of fame coach? What exactly has EJ done to be above questioning? Seems to me he got this wrong then reacted by making it personal. Bench Haywood to prove a point? Are former players more susceptible to this? Byron Scott had problems, Nate McMillan too.

Eddie sits back, hands off his veteran team. That’s how he runs things. Then there’s a bump in the road. If he’s the coach you describe why does he turn to management to handle it?

Applying the high school or college mindset to the NBA doesn’t work, at least not for very long.

by Jheiser3 on Jul 12, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A couple of points

1) Neither of them are very good. They are essentially the same player. Poor rebounding centers with weak offensive games.
2) Don’t use Brendan picking fights in practice to say that he “cares more”. It just shows he’s whiny and doesn’t know how to step up and be a man. If you want more playing time, you go out and earn it. He got beat out for the starting position two years ago cuz he showed up fat for training camp and played lazy in practice. He didn’t deserve to start. This past year he showed up in shape for once, but he was still one of the worst centers in the east. You can’t fix bad hands and laziness, which he has both of.
3) Brendan clearly has more talent, but he wastes a lot of it. Etan is too short, but you know what? If you had a loose ball drill between the two of them, I would bet my house on Etan, cuz he wants the ball and Brendan doesn’t care.

Hopefully McGee can how up and compete for minutes, cuz we need someone down low to give this team some presence.

Is Etan overpaid? Yes. Is Brendan? Yes. Neither of them a trade worthy, so we gotta suck it up and make the most of it.

by GodWuzAWiz on Jul 11, 2008 9:38 PM EDT   0 recs

Challenge

Name 5 better centers in than Haywood (in the East).

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 11, 2008 9:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

for real?

Top Line disregarding salary

Okafor (more rebounds, better defender)
Dalembert (more rebounds, better defender)
Howard (better everything)
Ilgauskas(better scorer)
Jermaine O’Neal (when healthy)
Wallace (better everything)
Bogut (better passer for our system, better scorer)
Perkins (better rebounder, cheaper) (oops thats cheating)

Younger and Cheaper
Shawn Williams (will most likely be a better defender)
Jason Maxiell (ditto)

And if we wanted to become Phoenix 2003-06 East I would rather Amare with

Bosh (better everything)
Horford (better rebounder)

Brendan and Etan most resemble
Zaza Pachulia
Rasho Nesterovic

Heck, I might even take 15 of Alonzo starting followed by one of our centers.

Not two people I want to tie my hopes to

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 1:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dude, seriously

Read this. Haywood’s season was just as good as any Eastern Conference center not named Dwight Howard. I’m not counting Sheed, Bosh or Horford. Jermaine O’Neal and Okafor didn’t score nearly as efficiently, and while their counting stats were higher, they also had far higher usage rates. Ilgauskas and Bogut have more skills, but shoot less efficiently. Perkins’ shooting efficiency was crazy-good, but he also had an ungodly turnover percentage.

Now, that is just this season, but as Rook mentioned earlier in this thread, it’s not like Haywood was so much better than in years past.

Haywood’s far better than Zaza Pachulia and Rasho Nesterovic, who are consequently far better than Etan. I’m struggling to find any metric that tells me otherwise, besides silly per-game stats.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 1:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no really

the challenge was to find 5

of which even discounting my flippant Nesterovic/Pachulia comment, you also listed Sheed, Bosh, Howard, and Horford not counting. You’re also disregarding the fact that Okafor is a better defender (and so is Perkins), and that Ilgauskas and Bogut are better skill players by large margins, which would either help with a weakness (defense), or be more suited to our system (Princeton offense)

So if we take out the first three for being realistically out of our price range, and Horford for being being a draft pick, I still don’t understand how if you were presented on a decision, in a pickup game, you would choose Haywood over ANY of the above players. There is a reason that for years experts have said that the weakness of the Wizards is their front line.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 1:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Haywood's a phenomenal defender

Always has been, because he positions himself really well and uses his length. There’s no better way to illustrate this than with the on/off court numbers from the past four seasons.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07WAS13D.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0607/06WAS15D.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0506/05WAS15D.HTM

http://82games.com/04WAS15D.HTM

His impact wasn’t nearly as great this year, but a lot of that has to do with the absence of the defensively-inept Etan Thomas.

To summarize: Over the past four years, the Wizards have defended at around a league-average or better rate with Haywood in the game. If Haywood played every minute and the team defended at the same rate, their defensive efficiency (points/100 possessions) would have ranked them 12th, 13th, 15th and 17th. If Haywood played no minutes? 30th, 26th ,30th and 22nd. Essentially, Haywood’s presence alone transformed our defense from a historically bad unit into a league average one consistently for the past four seasons.

Okafor and Perkins have better defensive reputations, but Haywood is probably more valuable to us defensively than those guys are to their teams. Haywood alters shots, shuts down opposing centers and clears space for rebounders all by himself, even though he’s surrounded by four guys (ok, three guys) who could care less about defending.

As far as the other guys being better “skill” players, so what? They use more possessions and they waste more possessions with missed jump shots. Haywood shoots incredibly efficiently and his turnover ratio is comporable to Bogut and Ilgauskas (Z is a little higher, Bogut is a little lower).

If you’re talking about who to pick in a pickup game, or who has better skills, sure you could make an argument for five better Eastern Conference centers. I’d probably say that Z and Okafor are on Haywood’s level, perhaps a little higher. Bogut and Dalembert are probably right on Haywood’s level. Horford will be better, but he isn’t yet.

But if you’re asking me who I think would be a better fit for this Wizards team among Eastern Conference centers, here’s who I’d list.

-Dwight Howard
-Rasheed Wallace (if you count him as a center…I don’t)
-Chris Bosh (same above)

That’s it. Ilgauskas, Bogut and Dalembert shoot too many jumpers (seriously, we need another jump-shooter?) and Bogut and Ilgauskas aren’t half the defenders Haywood is. Okafor is good, but he’s not a particularly efficient scorer, and considering that our center isn’t getting many touches anyway, I’d like them to be efficient with the chances they get. In this respect, Haywood’s better. Down the road, I’d prefer Horford, but not now. Perkins would be totally lost in our Princeton offense, which requires the center to do a lot of handling the ball. His turnover ratio was nearly double that of Haywood’s last year.

The reason exprts have said the Wizards’ weakness is their front line is because of the guys behind Haywood, not Haywood. It’s because Jamison is small for his position. It’s because Etan Thomas, Darius Songaila and Andray Blatche suck as a reserve unit. It’s because they expect Haywood to be a low-post beast in the Dwight Howard mold, when what he really is is a Swiss Army Knife-like role player who fills in for everyone’s defensive issues and wastes few offensive possessions.

All that for five million a season.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 2:18 AM EDT to parent up   1 recs

I would counter again

but that last paragraph was phenomenal.

well played sir, well played.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 2:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well put sir.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 15, 2008 10:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pickup Game?

Hmmm….that’s not how I would run an NBA franchise, but that’s just me.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 15, 2008 10:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and how can I forget this finestring of performances

11/20 Phi
W 116-101 16 3-4 .750 0-0
- 0-0 - 0 1 0 2 2 2 4 0 6

11/23 Gsw
L 123-115 21 3-8 .375 0-0
—2-4 .500 0 2 1 3 4 0 4 1 8

11/24 @Mem
L 124-118 22 3-9 .333 0-0
—2-4 .500 0 2 3 2 4 2 6 1 8

11/28 @Sas
L 109-94 29 8-12 .667 0-0
—3-5 .600 1 2 1 3 2 3 5 2 19

11/30 @Phi
L 85-84 26 2-4 .500 0-0
—5-7 .714 0 5 1 2 2 2 4 2 9

12/1 Tor
W 101-97 19 1-3 .333 0-0
- 0-0 - 0 0 2 2 0 3 3 0 2

Haywood broke over 15 rebounds ONCE. As a starting NBA center. For a guy who is a legit seven feet, not good enough

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 1:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dude

You’re looking at the wrong metric. Haywood doesn’t grab all that many rebounds, sure, but the point is for the team to grab a higher percentage of available rebounds, not the individual.

What’s this? They do? And by a significant amount defensively? Yeah, in fact, it’s true. Read this:

One criticism lofted Haywood’s way is his inconsistent rebounding, but let me be the first to call bullshit on that. Haywood does an excellent job of clearing space for others to get the board, and his 9.9 rebounds/36 isn’t too shabby. The Wizards are grabbing a much higher percentage of rebounds with Haywood on the floor than without him, and the impact is basically the same on both offensive and defensive rebounds. I mean, really, can’t we put this criticism to rest?

Haywood’s ability to keep the opposing team off the offensive glass is far, far more important than his ability to ultimately be the one who grabs the rebound.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 1:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I always

I always thought that Jamison got quite a few easy rebounds underneath as Haywood held off the opposing Center.
I guess it’s not too hard to understand how Jamison had a career year in rebounding last year.
Haywood does a much better job of boxing out than Etan… (except on Verejao – god, I hate that guy)...

by Rook6980 on Jul 12, 2008 2:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Prada

I call fair enough on the 82games stat but I call nonsense on the clearing space point, thats personal observation. Also, if you look at matchups last season, tDalembert and Bogut both took Haywood’s lunch money, so I would say they are better. Further counting FG% as an indicator is a BIG stretch, because you know that Bogut and Ilgauskas were asked to play larger roles within their systems.

On Brendan’s best night last year here was his line
4/5 @Chi
W 99-87 35 9-16 .563 0-0
- 7-7 1.000 0 2 3 4 6 4 10 2 25

which stacks up favorably with many of either Bogut’s of Z’s nights.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 2:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dude, seriously

I don’t care about Brendan Haywood’s statlines. I thought I established that his impact goes far beyond the box score.

The data smacks in the face of your “personal observation,” so maybe you need to reevaluate how you’re seeing things.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 2:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And I don't mean that in a nasty way

That came across as way too confrontational. My apologies.

Everyone’s eyes can deceive. I see Gilbert Arenas through rose-colored glasses (and the same could be said about Brendan Haywood). I won’t like anything Etan Thomas does.

I just try to counteract what I see with numbers or data.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 2:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and I get defensive about Songalia

because I really enjoy the 2-man game with him and AD and think they are only hope off the bench, with the exception of Nick Young taking another ill advised 17 footer. Even though I know I’m completely wrong.

But I concede your point, I will try to hate Brendan less, until the next pass whistles through his hands.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 2:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It's aight

You’re not wrong. Brendan’s easy to hate. I used to hate him too, because his box score numbers suck and he’s a pain to watch. He’s very difficult to appreciate.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 2:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

its cool

thats why i love this site, and bullets fans. on other boards, the expletives would have started to be hurled 8 posts ago. you’re making rational, passionate arguments, and I’m attempting to do the same.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 2:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

better than with who on the floor

he didn’t have a true center backing him up last year, so I hope they would be grabbing a higher percentage with him on it.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 2:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I do think this has merit, actually

The team rebounding numbers were not significantly higher in years past with Etan backing up Haywood. This is true. That’s where I think Etan has value, as a 10-15 minute guy.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jul 12, 2008 2:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

which is where i placed Etan roles initially

I just don’t think Haywood is a premier center, but I agree that the price is right.

Its always Roger Mason (Jr.) time!

by ledellforlife on Jul 12, 2008 2:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

5?

BTH went for 10.6 and 7

Z
Al Horford
Dwight Howard
Okafor
Elton Brand

All bested him in both categories

Perkins is better
Rasheed is better
Ben Wallace is a better rebounder and defender
Dalembert is younger, quicker, and a better rebounder
Jermaine Oneal is a better scorer.

I am not saying I would rather have any of these guys over BTH, I’m just saying for a full time center … is he worth arguing over? And, shouldn’t we be challenging him and making him work hard to earn his spot? doesn’t that raise everybodies game?

by GodWuzAWiz on Jul 11, 2008 10:15 PM EDT   0 recs

I guess my whole challenge should have had a disclaimer

1) In the back of my mind, I was considering, as has been outlined, top 5 centers and the Wizards style of play.

2) I also was considering total package including potential, past and health.

Of those you mention, I’m taking Howard and Horford over BTH hands down. Brand has just recently come into the conversation…....so he’s not up for consideration.

Big Z’s shooting would be intriguing to have, but he’s way too lumbering for the Wizards offense. And I’d personally rather have BTH, at this point, over the rest of those guys (who are true centers)....and of course Jermaine O’Neal is a big question mark.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Jul 15, 2008 10:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs