Flip Saunders Fired

by cuppettcj on Jun 3, 2008 1:51 PM EDT

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (AP) - Flip Saunders was fired as Detroit Pistons coach Tuesday, four days after his team was eliminated by the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference finals.

President of basketball operations Joe Dumars said it's "time for a new voice to lead our team." Saunders had a year left on a four-year deal he signed in 2005. The decision comes three years after Saunders took over for Larry Brown, who led the Pistons to two straight NBA finals.

Yo! This represents the view of the user who wrote the FanPost, and not the entire Bullets Forever community. We're a place of many opinions, not just one.

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I don’t get Dumars going with Michael Curry. Yes the team will respect him but there is more to it than that. I think Terry Porter or Dwayne Casey would be a better fit. Porter may be too close to the current regime in that his hiring wouldn’t be enough of a change..

by Jheiser3 on Jun 3, 2008 4:22 PM EDT 0 recs

WHOLE TEAM ON TRADING BLOCK?

If this is indeed true, as is being reported, give me a helping of Tayshaun with a side order of McD.

I knew Manute Bol, and you sir are no Manute Bol!

by houserocker on Jun 3, 2008 7:30 PM EDT 0 recs

I just saw a part of a press conference Dumars did -

He said he is going to make drastic changes. I take it no one is untouchable.

by ooba on Jun 3, 2008 9:00 PM EDT up 0 recs

This is kind of on-topic, but still kind of unrelated.

I found this to be quite hilarious.

Bullets Forever: Where fancy numbers and YouTube come together.

by JakeTheSnake on Jun 3, 2008 10:24 PM EDT 0 recs

Sounds eerily like

this PtR post.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jun 3, 2008 10:59 PM EDT up 0 recs

Bring Flip on!

I’m sorry Eddie, but bring Flip Saunders in! I’d rather have a man that coached a team that wins 50-60 games a year, gets to the Easter Conference Finals, and loses than a coach that wins 40-44 games a year, gets to the first round and loses.

by bigrm18 on Jun 5, 2008 7:35 PM EDT 1 recs

I Agree

I think both Flip Saunders and Avery Johnson have proven themselves as coaches more than Eddie has. Isn’t it funny that Joe Dumars got fed up with three straight conference finals series losses, while Ernie is perfectly fine with three straight first round series losses? I wonder what it would take before Ernie gets fed up?

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 6, 2008 7:52 AM EDT up 0 recs

Let's not forget

It took Flip Saunders 8 years before he got to the second round of the playoffs in Minnesota.

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing that Flip Saunders would be an improvement over Eddie (hooray indecision!) I just wanted to point that out.

Bullets Forever: Where fancy numbers and YouTube come together.

by JakeTheSnake on Jun 6, 2008 8:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

Exactly. Flip took over a team that had 4 straight trips to the EC finals in Detroit and thats all he was able to get out of them. What exactly did he improve on?

by Jheiser3 on Jun 6, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up 0 recs

Its all relative. Flip took over a team that had been to the Finals 2 consecutive years, to the Eastern Conference Finals 4 years in a row and couldn’t get them over the hump.

Eddie took over a team that hadn’t been to the playoffs consistently and got them there and even won a first round series way back when. I was all for a new coach but neither Flip nor Avery do anything for me. Both took over excellent teams and didn’t get enough out of them.

by Jheiser3 on Jun 6, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up 0 recs

I Obviously Disagree

Flip took over a team that won one championship, but was burned out by Larry Brown. He kept them playing at a very high level for 3 years! I don’t care what type of team you take over, getting a team within 2 games of the NBA Finals for 3 straight years is a heck of an accomplishment. I would argue that had Amare Stoudamire and Boris Diaw not gotten suspended in the playoffs last season, Popovich’s Spurs would have had a worse result these last 3 seasons than Flip Saunders’s Pistons. Flip always put his team in a position to win a championship in Detroit, and did so without a legitimate superstar.

Now go back and look at Flip’s accomplishments in Minnesota. Yes, he lost several first round series, but he also took a team that was in the cellar for their entire franchise history and got them to 50 or more wins 4 times in his tenure! Exactly how many times has Eddie gotten the Wizards to 50 or more wins? Oh yeah, that’s right. I dare anyone to compare Flip Saunders record to that of Eddie Jordan’s and then tell me that Flip isn’t a much better coach than Eddie. Anyone who does so is being intellectually dishonest, IMHO.

As for Avery Johnson, he took over a team that had an explosive offense but terrible defense (sound familiar?) and took them to the next level by getting them to commit to defense. After never getting past the Western Conference Finals under Don Nelson, the Mavericks made it to within two games of a championship in Johnson’s first season. Nobody back then was saying that Avery Johnson couldn’t improve on what he was given. The next two seasons were a “disappointment” for him, if you call winning 67 and 51 games successively a disappointment. Again, compare the coaching record. Then get back to me with your excuses for Eddie.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 11, 2008 8:28 AM EDT up 0 recs

I think the point is

Flip isn’t so much better than Eddie that it’s worth the trouble of a coaching change. At least that’s how I see it.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Pradamaster on Jun 11, 2008 9:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

Second that.

by Truth About It on Jun 11, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up 0 recs

Why the need to count close losses as wins, or close wins as losses (Spurs)? Are you a Skins fan with that kind of thinking? I can play too though! Larry Brown was 1 quarter from 2 straight NBA titles with the Pistons. He handed Flip a veteran Finals team. Flip couldn’t repeat his success, or even get to the Finals and he got fired for it.

“Flip always put his team in a position to win a championship in Detroit, and did so without a legitimate superstar.”

I think you meant never. He failed to put them in position to win a championship, which is why he was fired. He did so with a team with 2 years experience in the NBA Finals, 3 All-Stars while alienating a Defensive player of the Year right out the door.

I never said Eddie was a better coach than Flip. All I did was point out the obvious: Flip has won nothing with two different talented teams and in fact could not even duplicate the success of the guy he replaced. Look at the numbers from just Minnesota, before he was handed the best team in the Eastern Conference (until he got a hold of them). He has a 55% winning percentage. Jordan, if we look at his stint in Washington, has a winning percentage of 47.8%, with one terrible season in DC as his only one under .500. Eddie never had the MVP of the league like Flip/Avery did either.

Again, the bar in Dallas is set higher than good regular season win totals. The team Avery took over had won 50 games or more in every season going back to 00-01. Thats 5 straight 50 win seasons. That he won this many or more games again is not an accomplishment in practical terms. Avery was fired for 2 consecutive FIRST ROUND playoff disasters with the reigning MVP of the league on his side. After getting to the Finals in his second trip (he had taken over for Nelson the year before and lost in the Semis) he couldn’t get out of the first round. Regular season wins mean little to a team that wins 50 games every year.

Compare the history of winning in Detroit or Dallas to what Eddie took control of. The franchise hasn’t won 50 games since the 78-79 season. They hadn’t been over .500 since Bickerstaff went 42-40 with the 97-98 team. Eddie has them at 500 or better in every season, and managed to improve on last year’s record without his best player in the lineup. Thus, he deserves some credit for that.

Like I said, its all relative.

by Jheiser3 on Jun 11, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up 0 recs

I Am a Skins Fan :)

And I still don’t agree with your version of relativity theory. Avery took a team that had never been to the NBA Finals and got them there. That’s called improvement. I give you your Larry Brown assumption and I’ll raise you one: Avery was one quarter away from being up 3-0 in the NBA Finals and essentially sealing the title for the Mavericks. Flip took a team that was just as bad as the one Eddie took over (I’m talking Minnesota right now) and got them to 50+ wins 4 times and to the Western Conference Finals. He then took over a very good, but aging team and kept them on the doorstep of a championship for 3 straight years.

I think you meant never. He failed to put them in position to win a championship, which is why he was fired.

Your definition of “position” is different than mine. Playing in a hard-fought, very competitive conference finals series is being in a position to win a championship, IMHO. Flip did that four times for two very different teams. A couple of calls, a couple of breaks, and a few more shots fall and you’re in the NBA Finals. Eddie never has, and I don’t think ever will, get the Wizards to that level. The best thing he has done in the playoffs is put the Wizards in position to get blown-out and swept in the second round. He has never gotten his team to commit to defense the way that both Avery and Flip have gotten their teams to. He’s completely incompetent in his coaching of defense, and it shows every season come playoff time. If the best either Flip or Avery can do is get the Wizards to 50-60 wins and two wins in an Eastern Conference Finals appearance, I’ll take it in a hearbeat. We won’t have to worry about that as long as we’ve got good ole Eddie though.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 11, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up 0 recs

I think you give coaches too much credit. This is a player’s league. Eddie never had a Garnett or a Nowitski, thats biggest difference. Flip’s Minnesota’s teams took an upswing as Garnett grew up and they surrounded him with better talent (Cassell and Sprewell) instead of Gugliotta and Marbury. Keep in mind, Flip lost in the first round SEVEN straight years before getting them to the Conference Finals. Eddie would need do the same 4 more seasons just to match that illustrious mark.

My definition of ‘position’ is in the Finals. Thats where you have a chance to win it all. You can’t be in position to win it all if you never get to the Finals. Flip could not get them back to where Larry Brown had gotten them. Flip did not improve on anything in Detroit. He took the reins of a championship team and won a bunch of regular season games and lost 3 straight post seasons. He never got more out of Minnesota or Detroit. He got exactly what they were capable of or (more often) less. I don’t celebrate coaches for that.

At least Avery got his team one step beyond where they had been previously. Still, he took over a team that had been putting up big numbers for 5 years and got them and their MVP to the Finals once, losing. Again, this was a winning team without him, why does he and only he get ‘credit’ for the 50+ wins they got when he took over? Since that trip he has been out-coached to defeats in two straight FIRST ROUNDS. Were he to come here he couldn’t bring anyone from Dallas with him.

You think we hire one of these guys and we reach 50 wins? Those 50+ wins stay there in Dallas/Detroit with the players who earned them. They don’t get to bring Dirk, Howard, Chauncey, Rip, Sheed or Tayshaun with them if they coach here. They have to coach the Wizards. Best you could hope for would be Devean George.

Ironically, I called for Eddie’s head after this past season while admitting it was his best job so far. I even got to say so on the radio one afternoon. Simply put, just because Eddie is the guy who got the Wizards to this point does not mean he is the guy to finish the job. There are several examples of teams who plateaued and needed a new coach to get them to the next level. Carlisle to Brown and Collins to Jackson are two examples. So I actually agree with you on Eddie, but once you factored in Flip freakin Saunders as an example of a big winner, well, thats just wrong.

Its also important to see the big picture and why ownership would be ultra-supportive of the job Eddie has done.

by Jheiser3 on Jun 11, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up 0 recs

Funny, at the End You Seemed to Agree With Me

There are several examples of teams who plateaued and needed a new coach to get them to the next level. Carlisle to Brown and Collins to Jackson are two examples.
...
Its also important to see the big picture and why ownership would be ultra-supportive of the job Eddie has done.

That’s pretty much the gist of my point. Eddie can’t even duplicate the success of Flip “freakin” Saunders, but ownership treats him like he’s Red Auerbach because their expectations are so low. As long as ownership is satisfied with merely making the playoffs, then winning a championship will be forever out of reach for our team.

I also think you underrate the importance of good coaching. You keep criticizing Flip Saunders because he lost in the first round SEVEN straight years, but fail to mention that was because he competed in the Western Conference, which has been much more competive for the past decade and where 50+ wins gets you only the 4th or 5th seed and requires that you play another 50+ win team in the first round. Consider 2002-2003. The Timberwolves won 51 games, but had to play a 50 win Lakers team in the first round. Had the Timberwolves been in the weak Eastern Conference, they would have been the 1st seed and gotten to play a mediocre Bucks team that squeaked into the playoffs with 42 wins. Of course, 42 wins is considered a fantastic season by Eddie Jordan’s low standards, even when it occurs in the weak Eastern Conference. Don’t tell me that Flip couldn’t win a first round series in that scenario. Also don’t tell me that when he did take his team far it was all because “Garnett grew up” when Eddie Jordan has three All-Star players all grown up and still can’t crack 45 wins (in the Eastern Conference, mind you) or beat a good defense in the playoffs. If this is such a players league, then why did it take Phil Jackson to make the Bulls a championship team? He had the same players that Doug Collins did. Could it be that good coaching actually matters for something? Your own examples seem to support this.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 12, 2008 8:55 AM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah, I went WAY out on a limb with that whole “players get better as they mature” theory. Its almost as crazy as “get better players and your team will have a better record” theory that I’m crazy about.

Not sure you’re getting it. We agree on the first half, that a team often needs a new voice to go to the next level. Ironically, by this standard, you yourself would have fired Flip Saunders in Minnesota years before he got the ax!

Of course coaches make a difference but ultimately it will be a player’s league which is why Jackson helped the Bulls to the Finals, alas he couldn’t get back there without Michael Jordan. Also worth noting that Collins had Jordan/Pippen and Grant when they were 25/23/23. Jackson didn’t win until they were 27/25/25, in their third trip deep into the playoffs.

As soon as you call Flip Saunders an example of a difference making coach it all goes to crap IMO. You talk big about playoff successes but Flip ain’t the poster boy for how to win in the playoffs. Rake Eddie over the coals for his defensive liabilities, fine. Now look at Flip’s defenses versus Lebron last year.

His team in MN got better when they upgraded from Marbury to Chauncey to Brandon/Hudson to Cassell. What did he do in Detroit that the 2 previous coaches didn’t accomplish? I give him zero credit for that because I know how good that team was before he got there. JoeD handed him a championship team and he did what? Or it is back to a player’s league in your mind when Flip is the coach losing?

And I was all for finding that guy this offseason, but I understand that Eddie just improved on last year’s record without his best player for 70 games. Impressive no? You don’t seem to be able to understand why the Washington ownership sees it the way they do, which is why I added the historical information on the last time a coach had this level of success for this franchise. Becoming a consistent playoff team was a pipe dream not too long ago. So when they got a coach who had consistent success they want to keep him around even though he has lost in the playoffs, not unlike how the T Wolves ownership and Saunder’s college buddy felt about what Flip had done.

by Jheiser3 on Jun 12, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up 0 recs

Interestingly...

Before Larry Brown got the Piston to their next level, he was just another coach known for good regular seasons who would always falter deep in the playoffs. Twice he got the Indiana Pacers to within one game of the NBA Finals, only to lose. Once, he got a Philadelphia 76ers team to the NBA Finals, only to get demolished by the Lakers after stealing Game 1. Many times, like in 1990-91, 1991-92, 1992-93, 1995-96, and 2001-02, he lost in the first round, just like Flip Saunders and Avery Johnson. But he had proven he could get a team in position to win a championship (by my definition), and given enough opportunities, he converted on one.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 12, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up 0 recs

I killed a man with a plastic fork for comparing Flip Saunders to Larry Brown. ;)

You’ve already made the argument that Flip succeeded by making the playoffs and not winning because he was out west. Can’t exactly hold LB to a different standard after turning around the CLIPPERS, right?

Larry was known as a coach who’s teams got better as soon as he took over. Thats exactly what happened in Detroit. He won a national championship at Kansas, he took the Pacers to the Eastern Conference Finals and took a one man team in Philly all the way to the Finals. That was a great example of something Flip could never, ever do.

by Jheiser3 on Jun 12, 2008 11:24 AM EDT up 0 recs

Oh, Really? I Guess You'll Have to Kill Me Then. ;)

In Flip’s first full season with Minnesota, he took a franchise that had never won more than 29 games in a season and immediately took them to the playoffs. In Larry’s first full season with the 76ers, he took them to a 31-51 record. It looks like Flip is better at improving bad teams than Larry is. Of course, he’s only had to take over a bad team once, so the subject size is a bit small.

But, ultimately, we’re not comparing Flip Saunders to Larry Brown. We’re comparing him to Eddie Jordan. Flip’s worst full season with Minnesota was that 40-42 season, in which he was swept in the first round. And this was just with an immature Kevin Garnett and role players you dismiss as not being very good (Tom Gugliotta, Stephon Marbury). Funny, sounds like a typical season for Eddie Jordan.

One more thing. I admit to being inconsistent with the whole players league/coaches league thing. But you are guilty as well. You can’t blame Flip and not the players for not making it to the NBA Finals with Detroit, but then credit the players and not Flip for making the Western Conference Finals in Minnesota. The fact of the matter is, the Timberwolves got instantly better when Flip took over, and instantly worse when he left. Coincidence? At least he has proven that he has a higher ceiling than Eddie, especially when it comes to regular season success. Eddie has never had either regular season success nor post season success, especially by your high standards. So I’m kind of surprised that you keep defending him. Flip’s worst season coaching is on par with some of Eddie’s best.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 12, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up 0 recs

Nope

I’m not exactly sure what getting a recycled “players coach” accomplishes.

by Truth About It on Jun 9, 2008 10:44 AM EDT up 0 recs

Something (not sure what) has to change about this team. We cannot go on successfully (meaning at least getting out of the first round) with this team the way it is as of right now. I’m tired of seeing them get into the playoffs and losing in the first round. There’s no point in watching the wizards if we all end up knowing the final result of their season; a first round loss!

by bigrm18 on Jun 7, 2008 11:18 PM EDT 0 recs

Good Writeup By Prada Involving Flip

This quote was taken by from the regular season game 30 thread against the Pistons.

Not your daddy’s Pistons: Boston may be running over the league, but Detroit is quietly having an incredible season, though putting them first in your power rankings seems a bit silly.
How are they doing it? Detroit’s probably the poster boy for why per-game numbers are misleading. They’re averaging just over 99 points a game, which puts them somewhere in the middle of the back, while they are surrendering the second-fewest points per game behind just Boston, which makes it seem like they’re a defense-first team. But when you adjust for tempo, the story changes. Since Flip Saunders took over for Larry Brown, the Pistons’ offense has become one of the best halfcourt machines in recent memory, and only Phoenix has a higher offensive efficiency.

What makes Detroit’s offense so good? They never turn the ball over. Detroit’s turnover rate has consistently been among the best in basketball, and this year, they’re number one. The major reason is Chauncey Billups, who has really blossomed under Saunders. His PER is approaching 25 right now, and he’s a legitimate MVP candidate that has a knack for getting the ball where it needs to go. He’s not particularly quick, but he understands angles well and has curbed his poor shot selection in recent years.

Good analysis, but the breakdown on Chauncey does defeat my argument that Flip didn’t have a legitimate superstar.

"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier

by cuppettcj on Jun 12, 2008 9:38 AM EDT 0 recs