Maybe it's the system?
The year is 2003, you're reading the newest edition of ESPN the Magazine. Inside you'll find a story about how Jason Williams and Hubie Brown are turning things around in Memphis, a 15 year old OJ Mayo is being touted as the next LeBron (who mind you, was in the middle of his rookie season at the time), someone tries to make the argument that adding Calbert Cheaney, Nick Van Exel, and Brian Cardinal was a good move after losing Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison in the off-season, and there's this little, five-paragraph article in the NCAA Basketball section titled "System Failure" about the failings of the Princeton offense, the same one that Eddie Jordan currently runs.
Even though it's fairly short, I'm pretty sure that posting the whole thing would be a no-no, so I'm just going to post part of it, and hope that you're local library has the rest if you're that interested.
Sometimes, reality gets in the way of a good story. And so it is with the legend of the Princeton offense. Sure, more coaches than ever are using parts of Pete Carill's system, built on motion, backdoor cuts and three-point shooting. Problem is, teams running the pure version aren't winning. "Everyone has caught up," says Cornell coach Steve Donahue. "It's easier to guard."
The six teams that ran the Princeton offense last season -- the Tigers, Dartmouth, Columbia, Samford, Northwestern, Air Force -- went a combined 63-103. Columbia coach Armond Hill took the backdoor to the unemployment line after his Lions went 2-25. And Campbell's Billy Lee, who dabbled with the system only to see his team finish 5-22, resigned after 18 years on the job.
But didn't Herb Sendek turn it around at NC State after incorporating aspects of Carill's offense into his playobook two years ago? Well, no. The Pack's recent success has been in spite of the Princeton influence, not because of it. Better ballers like Julius Hodge are the real reason for the surge. "The way they run the offense is a joke," says one coach. "They have no idea what they're doing in terms of angles and intricacies."
Just for a comparison to record of teams that ran this when the article came out, here's a list of the teams running the Princeton now (according to the always reliable Wikipedia), along with their record for the past season:
- Princeton: 6-23
- Georgetown: 28-6
- Air Force: 16-14
- Northwestern: 8-22
- Richmond: 16-15
- Brown: 19-10
- Samford: 14-16
- USC: 21-12
- Arizona State: 21-12
Clearly, it's gotten better since '03. The record of coaches using the Princeton has improved from 63-103 (.379 winning %) to 149-130 ( .534 winning %) this year, but again, this could be a product of better players rather than the success of the system. The only two teams from that group that made the tournament were Georgetown and USC and they both have players that are projected to be first round picks in the draft with Roy Hibbert for Georgetown and Davon Jefferson and "the next LeBron" for USC. Take away those two teams, and the winning percentage drops to .481.
Now am I saying that Eddie Jordan's system is handcuffing the team and that he needs to be fired? Not necessarily. There aren't nearly as many players in the NCAA ranks that can execute the Princeton effectively as is done in the NBA. Not to mention, that it's not like the team's offense has been the reason the Wizards can't get past Cleveland. But it's very interesting to note that for all of the talk of "the Wizards execute the offense better without Arenas!" and "the ball movement is AMAZING!" this year, their offensive rating was lower this year than it was the past three years when they supposedly weren't executing Eddie's offensive system.
Again, I'm not trying to turn this into some sort of a Fire Eddie post or anything like that. I'm just saying that maybe just maybe the Princeton offense isn't all that we've cracked it up to be. With that said, I'm not the greatest X's and O's guy out there either, so I'm open to rebuke and debate on this one.
1 recs |
11
comments
| Add your comment
Read Related
Comments
This is an interesting debate/discussion
The first thought that came to me was this: since we did so well this year, despite our injuries, we expected more.
How many of you said to yourselves, when you heard Arenas was out for almost all of the season, “We need to go deep in the playoffs,” or “we need to beat the Celtics more times than any other team in the league?” When I heard about Arenas (I also had a feeling it would be more than 3 months), I said, “Great, our season is over.” I’d hope we’d win 30 games without Arenas. Well, we ended up only a couple games behind the Cavs. Taking all those injuries into consideration, we greatly exceeded our expectations.
I gotta run, so I can’t finish the thought, but since we exceeded our expectations, we can now ask, “what must we change or do differently so that we don’t lose to the Cavs next year?” I got it! Let’s foul Lebron James really hard.
by se7en on
May 7, 2008 1:59 PM EDT
reply
0 recs
The thing is
Like NC State, I don’t think the Wizards run a true Princeton offense. I do think, however, that is was more true this year without Arenas than it was with him. And Jake is right, the offense was worse this year.
That said, it was a pretty solid 11th this year, even without Gilbert. That’s pretty damn good considering the circumstances.
I think the lesson here is that, like any system, the Princeton is only as good as the people who run it. That said, to be near the top-10 in offense without our most dynamic offensive player has to reflect well on Eddie and the Princeton, doesn’t it?
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
May 7, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
reply
0 recs
That's a very valid point
I guess what I was trying to get to was that we’ve got offensive talented players regardless of the system that they play in, so if we brought in a coach that could make the defense more effective, I don’t think that the fear of ruining Eddie’s Princeton offense should keep us from doing that.
In hindsight, the post was probably a terrible way to argue that point, but I’m still on the fence with a lot of the decisions to change or not to change (including whether or not Eddie needs to go), which makes my the logic behind my posts even stranger than usual.
Bullets Forever: Where fancy numbers and YouTube come together.
by JakeTheSnake on
May 7, 2008 3:15 PM EDT
up
reply
0 recs
Ah, I see
Good point.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
May 7, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
up
reply
0 recs
I meant the first paragraph
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
May 7, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
up
reply
0 recs
Yeah it isn't pure
EJ has been tinkering with it since Sacremento, kinda like how tony Starks is always messing with the Iron Man suit (with, of course, different results).
by Pryme on
May 7, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
up
reply
0 recs
It's almost like you have four choices for offense in the NBA
1. Run the Princeton, understanding that the player(s) individual talent(s) must be sacrificed for the good of the team.
2. Run the Triangle, which requires just as much sacrifice and is harder to learn.
3. Do the Pick ‘N Roll (but you need a good guard/big man combo).
4. Isolate your star player and go for it (potential double- and triple-teams be damned.
Of course, you have to also consider defense. As extraordinary an offense the Triangle is (at least to guys like Charely Rosen), running it during the post-Shaq years didn’t exactly grant the Lakers repeated runs to the NBA Finals. They needed defense as well.
by Pryme on
May 7, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
reply
0 recs
But all offensive systems have pick and roll
There’s also Utah’s Flex offense, as well as the Riley-esque down screens, etc.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
May 7, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
up
reply
0 recs
To your last point
Dallas tried running the triangle when they had the Jason Kidd/Jim Jackson/Jamal Mashburn teams, and it failed miserably. You need the right players for that system as well.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Pradamaster on
May 7, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
up
reply
0 recs
Interesting Discussion
FWIWIMO – i didn’t think we ran the Princeton enough and it was virtually non-existant once Gil returned. I think, like the Triangle, it takes most players a couple years to run the system well, which meant that when younger players were put in the game, it couldn’t be run. Its a catch 22 to me- I don’t think our defense will ever be top notch with Eddie at the helm (I just don’t think he can coach defense) and I believe in his offensive system as long as the core of the team remains intact.
If Gil and Antawn leave, Eddie has to go. The Princeton will be worthless if new pieces have to be brought in. I dunno, I’m rabling…
I think most fans are in the same boat. So many topics to debate, and no clear cut negative or positive outcome will be decided on even when the moves are made. Weird situation to be in as a fan.
'he nails an open three from the corner....just like you and me, this one was made by penetration' - Truthaboutit - Round 1 Game 5 Recap
by KDP on
May 7, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
reply
1 recs
The system isn't a problem...
...in part because while it’s based on Princeton principles, it’s a professionalized version of the system. Like every other offensive system, it’s ultimately only as good as the talent. There is one potential advantage to running a Princeton-type system - player acquisition. The system creates a great home for tweeners (because there’s no PG, SG, SF, PF - there are guards and forwards). All those talented combo guards who aren’t really a PG and aren’t really a SG are perfect for the Princeton. This could potentially be a problem on the defensive end because there might not be “natural” matchups. But scheme matters more on defense, and that can be compensated for.
by TheSecretWeapon on
May 7, 2008 6:27 PM EDT
reply
0 recs













