About that big lumbering Georgetown center
Normally, I wait to do draft prospect profiles until when we get closer to draft day, but since there's been a ton of discussion about Roy Hibbert, I'm doing this one early. -PM
It seems our community is divided over this local product. Some say he's a perfect fit , others say he's a big stiff. The connection is obvious. Besides being a local guy, he played in a form of the Princeton offense at Georgetown. Add that to the 7'2'' frame, and the intrigue is understandable.
Truthfully, there's a lot to like about Hibbert. Popular opinion of him has lessened because his 2007/08 season was worse than his 2006/07 one, but he still was pretty solid. He still had a 31.1 PER, which was good for 16th in the nation. His effective field goal percentage in 2006/07 was an insane 67 percent, but it was still a robust 61 percent in 2007/08. Likewise, his true shooting percentage was down from his 2006/07 year, but was still at 63 percent. No matter how you slice it, he was an incredibly efficient scorer, which bodes well considering he probably won't get too many shots here.
But what makes Hibbert particularly intriguing is his passing. Assists are not the best measure of one's passing proficiency, but it still is impressive that only starting guards Jonathan Wallace and Jessie Sapp had higher assist ratios than Hibbert last year. Granted, it helps that Georgetown, as a team, had one of the highest assist ratios in the country, but Hibbert's ability to see the floor has to be a key factor for that.
What might be more impressive, however, is that Hibbert had the lowest turnover percentage on the team. He turned it over on just 15.6 percent of Georgetown's possessions, which doesn't seem so impressive, but it was still good enough to rank in the top 20 in the Big East last year.
It is interesting to note that Hibbert's efficiency decreased as his usage increased. This season, he used 17.4 percent of his team's possessions, up from 16 percent in 2006/07. That probably has a lot to do with the loss of Jeff Green, but it's definitely concerning to see Hibbert struggle when he received more shots. I always felt Green was really underrated, because he had a knack for getting Hibbert the ball in the right spots. Without his set-up man, Hibbert wasn't quite as effective.
Still, you have to like that he's a high efficiency player that can pass and doesn't turn the ball over very much. In that way, he fits in perfectly.
What's the problem? There are two criticisms of Hibbert that I think are fairly valid. The first is that he's not much of a rebounder. Some of you have cited his inability to grab double-digit rebounds in most of his games this season, which is unfair because not only does Georgetown play at an incredibly slow pace, but Hibbert himself only plays 26 minutes a game (we'll get to this in a second). Looking at his rebounding per-minute numbers, and he actually stacks up pretty well.
| Player | Rebound/40 | Rebound Rate |
| Kevin Love | 14.4 | 29 |
| DeAndre Jordan | 11.9 | 15.4 |
| Robin Lopez | 9.2 | 14.5 |
| Donte Greene | 7.4 | 17.9 |
| Kosta Koufus | 9.9 | 19 |
| Davon Jefferson | 9.0 | 18.7 |
| Joey Dorsey | 15.1 | 23.5 |
| Roy Hibbert | 9.7 | 18.2 |
The problem is that Hibbert's exactly the type of player who will struggle to grab rebounds in the pros. And this takes me to the second problem. To put it bluntly, Hibbert is slow and unathletic. It's not so easy to quantify this, but I don't think it's an accident that Georgetown has played at a really slow pace in each of his three seasons. Sure, John Thompson III is notorious for running a deliberate Princeton offense, but part of that was because it suited Hibbert's strengths. Just check out his weaknesses on his NBADraft.net card.
Limited athletically: Lacks quickness, speed in the open floor, and explosiveness ... Has trouble against big and athletic centers, must work on ball fakes and becoming less predictable offensively ... Runs very stiff, slow transitioning from half to full court ... Has decent shot blocking skills due to his size, but lacks great quickness and reflexes vertically ...
Now, granted, this all reeks of "your eyes can deceive you" analysis, but I think it translates in the fact that he only averages 26 minutes a game. Part of that is because he's really foul-prone, averaging 4.4 fouls per 40 minutes, but truthfully, that mark has been a lot worse (look at his fouls/40 in his freshman season). In reality, the dude just isn't in good enough shape to play more than 26 minutes a game. He's not going to play all that many minutes in the pros, but it's a completely different game athletically, and he needs work if he wants to keep up.
The verdict: If he's available at 18, I'd rather have him than any other big not named Kevin Love. But is he someone we should move up to get? No way, no way in hell. He has his strengths, but I see someone with very limited upside. He reminds me a lot of Brendan Haywood, actually, in that he has a reputation for being a bit soft. The difference is that Brendan is quite bulky, while Hibbert is just tall. Nice value at 18, but we shouldn't expect a difference-maker.
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hibbert
total stiff, i think he has the passing skills and intelligence to play in the nba but he certainly doesnt have the athleticism, motor, attitude, or basketball skills to play in the league. He might be 7’2 and all the good that comes with that, but frankly i believe he would get dunked on at least once in every game he plays more than 10 minutes in. He cant move at all and was outclassed athletically everytime i saw him play, especially this past season. Ij cant explain how unimpressive i feel he has been throughout his college career. Sure he was okay in 06-07, but he was playing with the #5 draft pick in that years draft who made things infinitely easier on him. I hope to god the wizards dont draft him and i expect him to have a long career in the polish league.
by Wooz on
May 16, 2008 6:10 AM EDT
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did anyone mention he's 7'2"?
I mean, 7’2”. That’s gigantic. There are very few guys that size who are not slow and unathletic. I would expect his conditioning to improve in the pros if he wants to contribute over a full 82 game season.
My main knock on him is that he’s just not aggressive enough going to the basket, defending the basket, or rebounding around the basket. When he has games like the semi-final of the Big East tournament, he looks unstoppable. But he lays more eggs than gems like that one.
by five by five on
May 16, 2008 8:06 AM EDT
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I think he'll be a decent pro
He’s not going to be a starter, but I would be surprised if Hibbert doesn’t make a decent backup in the league. Sure, he’s not athletic, but he’s a 7-2 player who knows how to play, and it’s not like he’s not gonna get any better. I wouldn’t spend a first round pick on him, but I think he’s worth a second-rounder.
"Now, obviously individual production does not unilaterally equal better team production, but there's a high level of causation."
by Vanilla Gorilla on
May 16, 2008 9:26 AM EDT
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Oh, definitely
He’s better than Aaron Gray, a guy you mentioned in a previous comment.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
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can he shoot from 15 feet?
i haven’t seen any analysis of this.
and how tall is ilgauskas?
by DarrellWalkerFan on
May 16, 2008 10:18 AM EDT
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Ilgauskas
Big Z is 7’3”.....and not too many small forwards can shoot like that guy, must less centers..
I may be going blank, but Big Z and Arvydas Sabonis might be the best shooting 7 footers (not counting Dirk…true big men only) in the last 20 years.
Can anyone else recall others to consider?
As far as Hibbert’s J…..well, he hit that trey ball to beat UCONN….the reports say that he’s tried to work on that mid-range J the past couple years, but what big man his size hasn’t?
I’m not encouraged by his shooting touch after looking at this FT%:
Fresh: 66.2
Soph: 72.3
Junior: 68.6
Senior: 64.6
That’s a significant drop from his 2nd season to his last at G-Town.
by Truth About It on
May 16, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
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Sikma had a nice J. Tom Chambers but he wasn’t a true big.
by Jheiser3 on
May 16, 2008 10:33 AM EDT
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Patrick Ewing
Don’t forget his jump shot.
by hotplate on
May 16, 2008 12:32 PM EDT
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Yea, but....
I don’t really recall his range extending past FT line extended.
Seems like these other cats have ‘steps inside the 3-point line’ range.
by Truth About It on
May 16, 2008 12:46 PM EDT
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Nice Work on the break-down
One thing I’ll say in Hibbert’s defense:
I saw him play a handful of times in high school when he was at Georgetown Prep in DC…...and he’s made vast strides in agility since.
Yea, exactly…..consider how ‘lumbering’ he is now and just imagine how terrible he looked back then. I honestly thought he’d never become anything at G’Town…..and he’s obviously proved me wrong on that point.
But the jump to the pros is a whole other animal. So while he is evidently a smart player and a hard worker…..that doesn’t necessarily translate to him having that fire in his belly to really improve at the NBA level.
If the options are thin at 18, draft him if you must…..just expect Roy to become very familiar with the D-League for a season at least.
......I’m still predicting Peter John Ramos minus an inch.
by Truth About It on
May 16, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
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Most draft analysis’s tend to overlook this major point: to get on the floor in the NBA you have to be able to defend someone. Who is he going to defend? The bigs in the NBA are getting quicker, not slower. His foot speed will be a liability causing even more fouls than in college.
I’d rather take a chance on a younger prospect that has the athleticism to play in the NBA and needs refinement. Maybe if we move back into mid-20’s and get him, maybe.
The other angle to me is that if Roy Hibbert was a 7’2 lumbering center out of Oklahoma State, Nevada or Arkansas no Wizards fans would be clamoring for him.
by Jheiser3 on
May 16, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
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Very true......
If Steven Hill played at G’Town he might be a first rounder.
by Truth About It on
May 16, 2008 10:45 AM EDT
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No way on Hibbert. I'd much rather have...
i posted this under a different thread…
As a second rounder, James Gist. He’s a beast of an athlete, good shot blocker and rebounder that when given the go ahead on offense has a pretty solid inside/outside game. I think the thing that hurt Gist most this year was Greivis Vasquez’s domination of the ball. Whenever the terps ran their offense though Gist, he proved time and time again he was a double double guy.
He really reminds me of Antawn, being that same 6’8/6’9 tweener forward. He’s got some shooting range, very good rebounding, solid post play and has shown consistent improvement. Plus i like the idea of having someone that can maybe push and motivate blatche a little bit.
I think he was hindered by playing within the maryland guard oriented offenses. What do ya’ll think?
by AndraytheJohn on
May 16, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
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James Gist?
I saw him play many times last year, and came away thoroughly unimpressed. I don’t really think it’s the guard-oriented offense either, though Vasquez definitely hogged the ball a lot.
If Hibbert is soft, Gist is pudding.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
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Yeah, James Gist.
This kind of athelticism in the front court, plus his defense and shot blocking ability would go nicely with this team. Especially in transition. Half-court? Not so much…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgjxK-VuFog
"My only regret is that I have boneitis." - That Guy on Futurama
by Wizards on
May 16, 2008 3:50 PM EDT
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Come on
That’s a YouTube clip of a dunk from a Delaware State game. Doesn’t impress me at all.
He reminds me of Andray Blatche, except without the ball-handling or passing. He’s a nice shot-blocker, but loses concentration way too much on the glass. Not to mention his problem with hanging around the perimeter.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 3:56 PM EDT
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:D
I didn’t say it was against the best competition, but he does have highlight stuff against UCLA last year too. It would just be exciting. I’m a MD fan so maybe I am biased, but eh. It’s a thought.
"My only regret is that I have boneitis." - That Guy on Futurama
by Wizards on
May 16, 2008 4:02 PM EDT
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Prada, Beg to differ
Gist’s averages this season: 15.9 pts 7.9rebs 2.3 blks vs. Hibbert’s 13.4pts 6.4 rebs and 2.2 blocks.
You have a guy that is about 5 inches shorter, and averages more in every category… This goes a lot more towards proving how soft hibbert is at 7’2 than how pudding Gist is. I’ll admit, he’s a guy that disappears at times and it’s frustrating, but when he’s got the ball in his hands he’s pretty good.
Gist had 9 games this season where he scored over 20 points and 18 games over 15 points. He had 8 double doubles and 14 games with 3+ blocks. looking at Gists worst games of the season, they all seemed to have a similar trend (statistically at least): vasquez takes between 15 and 22 shots and averages about 5 turnovers during these games. I think the games you saw may have been these. Look at the stats, i can send you a spreadsheet if you want (I had waaaaay to much time on my hands this afternoon, and didn’t feel like doing work. god I love Fridays). in the end, he’s the kind of post athlete we desperately need. His offensive game isn’t refined yet, but we don’t need instant offense, we need more rebounding, defense and shotblocking. TBH he’d provide more than hibbert.
by AndraytheJohn on
May 16, 2008 3:57 PM EDT
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Very misleading
Ahh, the fallacy of per-game stats.
Maryland played at the 29th-fastest pace in college basketball last year (71.9 possessions per game). Georgetown played at the 311th-fastest pace this season, averaging just 62.1 possessions per game. Maryland therefore played nearly 10 more possessions per game last year, which means approximately 10 more chances for Gist to score.
Moreover, Hibbert played only 65 percent of possible minutes last year, compared to Gist’s 77.4 percent. More minutes means far more chances for Gist to score and rebound.
Per-40 minutes, adjusted for pace, Hibbert averaged 21.7 points and 10.3 rebounds with a true shooting percentage of 63 percent. Gist averaged 18.6 points and 9.2 rebounds with a 57 percent true shooting percentage.
I seriously don’t get the Gist love. If we’re going to grab a local product, take Hibbert, who can at least score with his back to the basket and pass well in the Princeton. Gist can jump, that’s about it.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
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Plus
Georgetown’s a better defensive team than Maryland (in fact, they were sixth-best in the country last year), and Hibbert was 26th in the nation in highest percentage of shots blocked. Bambale Osby blocked a higher percentage of shots than Gist did last year. , and Maryland’s defense, though good, wasn’t as good as Georgetown’s.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
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ahh the fallacy of statistics period
Technically you can use them to prove or disprove anything, it’s just a question of how much time you feel like devoting to your research. Maybe next we can figure out how many times each player touched the ball per game and who did more with those touches.
I just don’t like Hibbert. I hope he proves me wrong and becomes a solid NBA player, but I don’t see that happening.
My point on gist is that he’d be a great late second round pick that could contribute right away on defense, play a few positions and wouldn’t slow our offense/ball movement down.
He’s similar to Dominic, but I think a better overall player coming into the league the DM was.
by AndraytheJohn on
May 16, 2008 4:18 PM EDT
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If given the choice between
Numbers and “I just don’t like him,” I’ll take numbers. I’ll readily admit that you can’t tell everything by numbers, but I was mostly responding to your use of per-game numbers. Per-minute numbers are eons more effective than per-game numbers.
I don’t see the McGuire comparison with Gist. McGuire was one of the best rebounders in all of college basketball in his last year at Fresno State, and he also blocked an insane number of shots for his size. Gist kind of reminds me of Terrence Morris, who is starring for Maccabi Tel Aviv right now and never made it in the pros.
Then again, I’ll admit that I don’t like Gist much like you don’t like Hibbert. I always was dismayed that he shrinked from contact so much, and he never developed like I desperately hoped.
In the end, neither of us really know, but I’m confident that Gist will never amount to anything. To echo a statement from a previous comment here, if Gist played for Arkansas, I doubt we’d even be discussing him.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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fair enough
point taken…. if he played for a different program i think he might’ve been used more effectively than G. Williams did. Gist is waaaaaay more athletic than terrence morris was ( i haven’t seen him recently so can’t speak on that).
BTW… I just want to say, you guys have an awesome blog going here. Aside from the general humor and quality, there are ton’s of people with lots of knowledge. not a bunch of delusional idiots (I’m only delusional when it comes to MD basketball) that can’t respect other peep’s teams/povs.
by AndraytheJohn on
May 16, 2008 5:13 PM EDT
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I concur
As even I would take Hibbert of Gist.
by Truth About It on
May 16, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
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ah well...
Bottom line is, Hibbert was being talked about as a first round pick up above. I don’t think he is (not in this draft class at least). I was mentioning Gist as a second round pick. Then it got into comparing the two players… Bottom line is, I dont’ think Hibbert warrants a first round pick. I definitely don’t think Gist warrants one. I don’t like Hibbert I don’t think we should take him with that pick. I think we could get someone in the second round that could contribute more right away than Hibbert.
Prada, I’m all about stats, but as far as pace and 40 minute stats go… whenever people use them up I always feel as though it’s bringing something into play that can neither be proven or disproven.
If Hibbert (or any player ) played 40 minutes as opposed to his 26.3, maybe he’d be less productive? Maybe he’d tire, turn the ball over more or get into earlier foul trouble without his normal breaks. Maybe his production per 40 minutes would decline as a whole… they’re things we can hypothesize on till the end of time, but in the end can’t prove. It can also go the other way, i’m just arguing against.
by AndraytheJohn on
May 16, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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I get that criticism
I think the point of per-40 stats is to find a way to compare players who play different minutes in different systems. Using per-game stats also means we must assume coaches are infallable, and never play less productive players more than they should (or vice versa). Coaches are smarter than you and I, but they aren’t perfect.
I don’t think the point is to say that they would automatically produce at the same rate if given more mintues (though studies have shown that most players actually increase their per-minute production when given more time). And I agree that it’s concerning to see Hibbert struggle to play more than 26 minutes per game. At the very least, though, per-40 allows us to better compare players’ stats.
I didn’t mean to sound so harsh in my posts, by the way. My apologies. I just don’t like the “you can prove anything with statistics” line, because it’s akin to saying “you can prove anything with secondary evidence.” Sure, I suppose you could, but it doesn’t mean you can’t rely on any stats. I know you didn’t mean that statement in that way, so no worries, but the sight of it is like a red flag in my head.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 5:16 PM EDT
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also...
on hibbert, he reminds me of a poorman’s Brendan Heywood. I think that says it all right there. Big, and decent athleticism, but soft… not a great defender, not a ton of improvement over the years, and SHOULD be much better than he is.
by AndraytheJohn on
May 16, 2008 1:18 PM EDT
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Hells no on Hibbert
He seems like a nice guy, but yeah he’s too much of a stiff and slow to play significant minutes in the NBA. Slow,stiff 7 footers used to be feasible in the NBA. Those days are long gone.
I wouldn’t even call him a poor man’s Brendan Haywood. Haywood does have athleticism. He was just really lazy at UNC and coasted on his talent. Hibbert seems to have worked really hard to overcome his lack of athletic talent but he’s reached his ceiling i think.
Oh, and as far as a great shooting big man, how about Rik Smits, the Dunking Dutch Boy. He had a great jump shot, maybe not quite Sabonis-range but pretty darn good.
by IncandescentRex on
May 16, 2008 2:18 PM EDT
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Good call on Smits
Dude was way underrated.
There’s a ton of bigs out there who were great shooters for their size. Ewing, Smits, Sabonis, Ilgauskas and Sikma are obvious. There’s also Bill Laimbeer, Vlade Divac, Brad Miller, Luc Longley, Sam Perkins (very underrated player). Hell, Alonzo Mourning was launching threes in the 1995 playoffs.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
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Random assumption
Is it safe to guess that those that like Hibbert are G’Town fans while those that don’t are Maryland fans?
I’m not saying that either side is right or wrong (I’m still on the fence about him, not just on his skill, but whether or not targeting a big with #18 is the best move), but I think Hibbert’s polarizing effect on the fans of the area could be a detriment to him playing the way that he’s capable of. Georgetown fans will be expecting him to be just like he was with the Hoyas and Terrapin fans will already not like him because he’s from a (sorta, kinda) rival school. It’ not going to be easy to live up two wildly different expectations from two large contingents of the fanbase.
Bullets Forever: Where fancy numbers and YouTube come together.
by JakeTheSnake on
May 16, 2008 3:11 PM EDT
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I'm a fan of neither.....
.....but if I had to choose, it would be G’Town over the Terps.
And I still don’t like Hibbert.
by Truth About It on
May 16, 2008 3:41 PM EDT
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I'm a MD fan -
but I ended up going to more Gtown games because MD tickets are hard to come by. I do like Hibbert but I’m on the fence about how he will do in the pros. I believe he stayed another year at Gtown to work on getting better and I don’t think he did. I don’t think he is right for our wizards but I would like to see him doing well in the pros and i will root for him.
by ooba on
May 16, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
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I'm also a fan of neither school....
I’m a Duke fan but grew up in maryland, so I do favor the terps over the Hoyas. That also may have to do with the fact that I find the Hoyas brand of basketball SOOO boring.
When’s the last time someone from either school had an impact on the NBA? Steve Francis briefly?
by IncandescentRex on
May 16, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
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Blake, Dixon?
Michael Sweetney?
I guess I’m proving your point.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on
May 16, 2008 4:14 PM EDT
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Rebound Stats
Your statistical analysis has me pining for Joey Dorsey at #18. I don’t think its a fundamentals vs. athleticism thing in preferring him over Hibbert, but more of preferring the great at one thing (rebounding) over the good at many things player. If we’re going for a big, I’d prefer a rebounding, defensive tough guy over the well rounded soft guy. Even if he can’t shoot. It might be a cool change of pace bringing Dorsey and D-Mac off the bench to toughen up the D at certain points in the game.
by hotplate on
May 17, 2008 9:16 AM EDT
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