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Newer Absolute Low Point

We just lost to the Knicks.  

The Knicks that traded away their two best scorers yesterday.

The Knicks that only played 7 players tonight.

The Knicks that don't have two All-Stars.

The Knicks that are dealing with maybe the biggest distraction in the NBA in Stephon Marbury.

The Knicks that just lost to the Bucks by 17 on Friday night.

I think this video sums it up well.

0 recs | Comment 31 comments

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Knicks 122, Wizards 117

Nov 2008 from Posting and Toasting - 13 comments

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Fire Eddie Jordan

I’m hereby signing up with rook. It’s time to fire Eddie Jordan.

I’ve liked him and defended him for a long time. But that was before he went with Darius Songalia for pretty much the entire fourth quarter against a team with no true center that likes to drive to the basket. A shot blocker would be, y’know, useful. Someone who can get up there after rebounds would be dreeeeeamy.

The team looked their best at the start of the game, feeding JaVale and using his length to cause matchup problems. Then he picked up two quick ones, so okay, we’ve gotta sub out for the first. But after that Eddie just decided, I dunno, that it would be unfair to the Knicks for us to have a seven-footer in there when they don’t.

This is just embarrassing. What team in the league CAN the wizards beat right now?

by sierradave on Nov 23, 2008 12:07 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a toss-up...

Whoopi Goldberg or Jeff van Gundy

by khrabb on Nov 23, 2008 12:25 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Flip Saunders.

The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.

by mamemimo on Nov 23, 2008 11:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

taser is now dominic mcguire's name in casual convo

there is the jeff van gundy / ernie grunfeld connection.

by stingy d on Nov 23, 2008 8:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hahaha

what am i saying van gundy wouldn’t coach this team. you guys should inquire about whats his name who used to coach in cleveland. paul whatever…. that bothers me… i can think of is paul pressey. damn.

by stingy d on Nov 23, 2008 8:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Small Lineup

SERIOUSLY. I was really angry about Songalia playing the 4th quarter.

With that small lineup, I thought EJ would salivate in putting McGee back in.

We need to talk more about why McGee only played 9 minutes. Sure, you can say, he had foul trouble, but EJ didn’t put him back in, and he still only got half as many fouls as it takes to foul out. Was EJ trying to teach him a lesson? If you foul like that, you won’t play? The only lesson I got from it was, EJ will do anything to help us lose. No, that’s not true, but I felt he had some AWFUL coaching last night. AWFUL.

by se7en on Nov 23, 2008 2:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

defense

thats why mcgee only played 9 minutes. he didnt play very good d. now, none of our bigs did, but im just saying that would be the reason

by joshp on Nov 23, 2008 8:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gundy

At least he can teach defense, also trade Deshawn, I’m tired of seeing him force 10 threes a game.

by Fundefined on Nov 23, 2008 1:26 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EJ

I’m still skeptical that firing him now would do any good. Another coach might have more consistent rotations, but realistically only getting Arenas and Haywood back will lead to significant improvement.

However, if we’re picking coaching names out of a hat, here’s one I’d like to throw out there: Flip Saunders.

by Jon L on Nov 23, 2008 9:05 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You could give us Phil Jackson...

…and Juan Dixon would still find a way to not get Jamison or Butler the ball.

I’m chuckling as I write this. Prada will love this comment. ;)

by se7en on Nov 23, 2008 2:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Need to Do Something

Firing Eddie might hot do any good but it appears to me that his crazy sub patterns and unwillingness to get his players to defend the three killed the Wizards AGAIN. EJ needs to be held responsible and new blood at top could shake things up. He is Grunfeld’s guy so I do not see him pulling the trigger anyway.

OH, I would fire the medical team too.

What? They don't have TV in the D-League? Don't watch me, watch TV.

by Mac G on Nov 23, 2008 11:14 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is just painful

For the first time in years, I didn’t even bother watching or recording the game.

by AndNone on Nov 23, 2008 11:21 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't have a chance to watch the game yesterday

but can someone explain to me how McGee and Blatche play a combined 19 minutes? Absolutely ridiculous. I’ve always been an Eddie Jordan supporter, but what exactly is he doing? I never thought the Wizards woud light the league on fire without Arenas and Haywood for a while — but 1-10? I just don’t understand his substitution patterns or anything. Also, it’s time to start Young. If the Wizards are going to be this bad, then give the young guys a lot of minutes and shake things up. It’s not like the defense is really that much worse with Young in instead of Stevenson anyway.

Start Brown, Young, Butler, Jamison, and McGee and bring Blatche, McGuire, Stevenson, and Songaila (only at the 4) off of the bench. Dixon and Thomas should only play significant minutes if someone gets injured or is in foul trouble.

by Matt K. on Nov 23, 2008 11:56 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe Eddie's an evil genius . . .

Probably not, but maybe he knows that he has to get the team to buy-into playing the younger players over the veterans. In order to do that the veterans have to play so god-awful bad that even they’ll admit something has to change. A 1-10 start is a good way to prove that. So when Stevenson finally loses his starting spot, it’ll be tough for him to say he didn’t have a chance to play through a cold streak, or whatever other excuse he can come up with. Same with Songaila and Thomas. When they’re buried on the bench so Pecherov can try to “get buckets, son” they can’t really say they weren’t given a chance.

That’s the only explanation I can think of, but the much more likely alternative is that EJ has no idea what to do with this team.

by Bucky Katt on Nov 23, 2008 3:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Unstoppable Tank

You people are taking this season far too seriously.

Consider this. IF the ultimate goal is a championship, how do you improve a team and reach that pinnacle? How do you win given these conditions: A team that’s capped out. A team with no tradeable stars due to contracts that are undervalued (Caron); injury fears (Gil) or players that the notably loyal owner is wedded to keeping at all costs (Jamison). And behind that, a collection of mid-level talent or enthusiastic young puppies with interesting flaws and potential but no consistent NBA-quality game on a nightly basis.

You work the phones, steal your opportunities when they arise (Caron for the KFB). Try to lock up your key players at a good price (Caron, ‘Wood) try not to overpay when a starter hits the open market (Larry, O-face Jeffries). And if the MLE is your only option, and you need a key role player, and if you aren’t the most attractive market and can’t cross the lux tax, well hey offer extra years instead of overbidding on a cap-year impact. Borrow agaisnt the future and hope you’ll sort it out over time (Darius, AD).

Sometimes continuity and playoff mediocrity is hard enough to maintain. It’s tread water or drown, in a town where the most reliable ticket sales used to go to the out-of-town transplants, watching their hometown stars tour on through. YOu have to at least be competitive, after 30 years of general futility.

But when you see an opportunity you got to seize it.

What team expects to survive when their starting point guard goes down with an injury? Okay how ’bout when their top scorer is out? Okay how ’bout when their +/- champion defensive centerpiece Big goes down. And your most reliable back-ups near killed themselves last year trying to save the job of their well-liked hometown boy Coach (well-liked by players, the Media, and most importantly the Owner; if not the spit-flecked ravening diehards). And now these back-ups are dragging around nagging injuries from a year where they played more minutes than their talent could handle, and are expected to somehow do it again? To do what, exactly? Barely miss the playoffs? Get waffle-stomped again by Cleveland, etc or any of the New East teams that have improved in the offseason and over the years?

That helps how again? Remembering that the ultimate goal is a championship, does high-order mediocrity help this year?

You got to take your opportunities where you find them: the two most important positions on a basketball team: starting Point Guard, starting Center. Recall that statistically if you run a regression on the team of pts per 100 possessions using only the minutes Haywood is off-court we have been not only dead last defensively, but historically colossally terrible. Recall that with the exception of last year we have lost a key defensively skilled player (starter!) every year since the first year this coach has been here:

—multi-tool defender Jeffries versatile at sorta not-sucking at defending 5 positions on the floor, his size at 2-guard allowed us to hide the 6’5" Caron at SF and not be killed for it
—long defensively active 2-guard Larry who made 1st team defense gambling for steals
—the Big Quit KFB, who despite his flaws was our most skilled one-on-one defending Big Man, capable of stifling and frustrating players like Timmy or Dirk on a good night.

And now this year Haywood. Our bar none best most irreplaceable defensive player.

——————————————-
Fact is there’s only one way to win: have more talent than the next guy. If you can: have one player with more talent than everybody else in the league. Otherwise, have a few of them that are at least in the conversation. With the exception of last year, the recent Pistons and the Michael Jordan asterix, every champion over the past three decades or so has won with a number one #1 overall draft pick.

And in those Pistons & 08 Leper-con exceptions lies the way for any GM towards that golden city on a hill. Or shiny silver ball and cone, whatever. Even the Bad Boys Piston champs had a #1 overall player, though he wasn’t their best guy, but they had a raft of top picks on that team, and high quality roleplayers, assembled by careful draft and trades. They had a guy in Joe D who uses that model to win later on with the same model, stealing an undervalued star with good value, drafting smart within a philosophy to suit the talent he has. He did is well enough that when they lucked into a #2 pick he didn’t even need it.

The Miami Heat later played a similar front-office game: stockpile talent, then steal a disgruntled supastar and re-gruntle him as best you can.

Then there’s Danny Ainge, crazy like a fox, who could commit to sucking so hard and for so long because of a fanbase that has an ungodly number of championships to reflect on. Any success by the team drags the honking hordes of Bahston fans out of the woodwork, they ain’t going anywhere. No one’s buying and moving the Celtics. While trying to suck his way into a top ticket he stockpiled enough talent that he lucked into an inside straight with the collusion of his former teammate who gave him deal on the re-gruntling project worth 4 cents on the dollar.
 
That’s the simple fact gents for a championship most roads lead through the lottery one way or the other. You got to suck colossally well in the right year. Or suck consistently for a long time. Or follow the Spurs model and suck excellently when you have an injured star or two. At a time when you ain’t winning a championship anyway, and expectations are reasonably lowered. No team wins without a PG or a Center.

Problem is you have to tank carefully. You don’t want to piss off the fan base, you have a whole year ahead of you, you don’t want to lose revenue. The team needs to be still playing hard. They need to be in every game ‘fighting their guts out’-like. You can’t tell the players that’s what’s happening. You don’t want to lose their effort. YOu want to keep a level head, not shout at the guys, praise and play the players who are giving ‘effort’ , so you can ensure a good attitude regardless.

You want to try to develop youngsters, use teaching moments by massaging their minutes —when they make a mistake, pull them so the asst coaches can get in their ear tell them how to fix it, in-game. And when energy level is assured, play fundamentally sound but undertalented players who have good technique (like Darius or DSteve) for the puppies to watch. And manage the problem of a few hypertalent youngsters who might accidentally win a few games on sheer enthusiasm.

But all the while you want to manage expectations. Tell the media we’re built to succeed with the other guys, but you know it’s hard… And give your current players an excuse to both work hard but not get too down on themselves. Thing is you can’t tip your hand really, except to the insiders and cognoscenti.

Every now and against when they’re killing you in the media you got to throw in a ‘Wink, Wink’ loss to a 7 man team with a starting two-guard who looks like a burned chicken mcnugget. Just to raise an eyebrow in front offices around the land in case there’s any question if in fact you and your team really are that bad. Just in case your front office backdoors your cooperation with them and gives you the old “we’re going in a different direction” Same way the Pistons and Heat assembled the talent then swapped the coaches..

Just saying wiz fans. You got to celebrate these losses. Our coach has to play a masterful game just to keep McGee & Nick from winning by accident. We have to dominate early to give a taste of winning then let it slip away with the vets, oh so close. Gilbert gets it, says ‘it wouldn’t be so bad…’ Caron gets it— “if we’re 1-20 I’m thinking about Tahiti” . As fans you got to keep your head up and look at the bigger picture. Blake Griffin for instance. Or even further down the lotto chute: Steph Curry.

Point being at some point we get back an perennial allstar scoring Point and a high-quality defensive Center. Imagine we also get a lotto pick talent and high 2nd rounder to play next to our Big Daddy Rookie and all.

Enjoy the first quarter, heck the three quarters before the tank rolls in. That’s the team of the future my friends. Plus a little more.

 

by doclinkin on Nov 23, 2008 11:57 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

speaking of the celtics

they tanked trying to get tim duncan. didn’t work out so well.

most important thing is we set the table for next year. with gil coming back mid-year, i dispute the idea that playing to lose is the best way to do that.

by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 23, 2008 12:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Show me a way to the championship

…that doesn’t involve the lottery.

Fact is mid-season coaching changes almost never result in success. If we lose a popular coach mid-year we’re more likely to have player revolt and get kicked around in the Nationwide media, and agent/player perception of the Wiz as a poorly run franchise will continue. I don’t see where that shows longterm improvement.

Our rivals are improving. It’s a pretty simple question: Is Miami probably better or worse now that they’ve got Beasley? You have to take advantage of the opportunities even in a hard year.

We’ve got a healthy start on a good tanking. You never know what will happen when Gil comes back— is he healthy, will he regain his entire game including the hell-for-leather attacks down the lane? Or if say he comes back 110% will it be too late to catch up with our rivals in the East? Probably. Now at full power Gil is good enough to win us a few games, if we’re gonna lsoe a few might as well ensure we lose ‘em early. But even with Gil and Brendan I doubt this year we’d do much. The team will still have some chemistry issues while players sort out their roles mid-year. Bang the rust off. You never pick up exactly where you left off.

In that case the best plan is: we lose a few games now, bring the young players along. Get Gil back, re-integrate him into the team, maybe win a few. Regain Haywood, shuffle the Big Man rotation. Maybe we get hot late, and win a few games just to give a taste of what we’re capable of, but when it’s clear we’re out of contention, shut it down late.

You mention the Tim Duncan sweepstakes/Celts failure. Sure, though the %‘s have been tweaked since then, and there’s some lotto insurance for the real cellar dwellers. But you can definitely find talent even in an off year drafting in the lotto. And last year’s Celts show the value of stockpiling talent. It’s tough to improve with mid-level talent year after year. At some point you have to take advantage of an opportunity to upgrade.

by doclinkin on Nov 23, 2008 2:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doc this is brutal and dispiriting

If the Wizards had blown this team up and started anew around Caron this would be almost understandable. But instead they didn’t use Jamison’s expiring contract to get an impact player and then decided to keep the same team together even though they haven’t done diddly poo!
And tanking won’t work because the Wizards have the worst lottery luck of anyone. And even if it did, what do we do? Blake Griffin (not a true 7-footer but pretty good, could he be like Duncan?) or RIcky Rubio (a fantastically talented point guard, but a teenager). Does either guy represent the kind of upgrade that steers the Wizards back on the yellow brick road toward a title?

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Nov 24, 2008 1:27 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't lose sight

of the fact that the talent upgrade we need is already on the roster.

We get back an allstar starting PG, plus our top 5 defensive seven footer. The teams that tank and succeed best are not the teams desperate for a #1 option to rescue the franchise, but teams who have a solid framework already. We get Gil and Haywood back with the rest of our core players then add a yougn stud at almost any position, are we worse off?

Nope.

I don’t like pretty Ricky as much as the rest of the draftniks. I got doubts about his high-end NBA athleticism, defensively, scoring inside the arc. I bet he falls a bit.

But I freakin’ love Dell Curry’s boy Steph. He’d be available late lotto if we fell that far. People see him as an undersized 2-guard. I see him as a developing Point who has had to play primary scorer by default. He’s got the game-recognition wet-ware you just can’t buy rent or develop. He just uses it for scoring, but I’ve seen him make the absolute perfect ideal pass in traffic, snatch steals by anticipation and positioning, and he’s twice as athletic as he looks, he just plays so calm and under control with no wasted motion that he doesn’t look speedy.

His PG Jason Richards graduated this year, so what does Steph do? He spends the summer teaching at Chris Paul’s camp and Steve Nash’s camp, picking their brains every second he can. Then first two games out the gate drops 9 dimes, then ten dimes. In one game picked up 9 steals to go along with it (near trip-dub, then 4 steals the next game) all while scoring ~30pts per game on insane shooting %‘s. Then the next game on a back-to-back goes for 40+ points against OKState and Big Blake Griffin on national broadcast. This is the kid who on the biggest stage (NCAA’s) averages over 30 points.

Put it this way. Imagine a nonstreaky Juan Dixon, mistake free dropping shots from catapult range, or catchign the cutter onthe backdoor. We miss Roger Mason’s outside shot, imagine we had a Mase who can run point, steal, make teammates better. I expect by the end of the year Steph will be in the conversation for best PG’s in the draft. I have a strong certainty he will be in that talk 5 years from now.

We don’t have to have the best or worst luck here, really. Just a bit of front office competence. JaVale McGee suggests we may have some. Nick Young agrees. Every draft has good players, not just steals. This draft is underrated.

But come on. Look at big Griff. He’s yanked down 20+ boards every game out so far this year. You think that wouldn’t look good next to BigDaddyWookie JaVale McGee? And bump Antawn Jamison to a quality bench player in a year or so?

You lose your starting Big and Point Guard, you’re expected to fall. But unlike Miami, who won’t get back Zo, our key players all return. If we suffer a whipping now and again, that’s fine, especially if some are DESIGNED whippings. Just enjoy the heat flash radiation of our occasionally incandescent young players, and understand maybe there’s a reason we won’t unleash them completely when they’re playing well. Maybe it helps us more long term if we’re not winning a game or two right now.

 

by doclinkin on Nov 24, 2008 9:47 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

then again 980 says EJ fired...

so much for the designed losses theory. Depending on who they hire.

by doclinkin on Nov 24, 2008 9:52 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love the optimism

and enthusiasm for Dell’s kid. I like him a lot just not sure he can conduct the orchestra or is big enough to play PG in this league. My only disagreement with your excellent points is that I am unconvinced that Gilbert will ever return to the all-star form. And given the nature of Haywood’s injury, it is a question whether he will ever be as effective as he was before.

"Would you like to shoot me now or wait till you get home." --- Daffy Duck

by George Templeton on Nov 24, 2008 11:56 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hold on

for every tanking success story, there are several total disasters, that set a team back several years. you just forget about it because tanking becomes an annual tradition for those teams. lets not become the grizzlies.

by joshp on Nov 24, 2008 1:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beating Head Into Wall

Haha! Jake, thanks for the video. You’ve brought new meaning to “I can’t feel my face” and understanding Deshawn’s 34% shooting percentage.

Call me crazy, but I think we’ll bounce back from this and still be in the running towards the playoffs.

by se7en on Nov 23, 2008 2:22 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On Deck

how yall feel about Avery Johnson?

by morethesamewiz on Nov 23, 2008 3:03 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that squeaky guy?

i wouldn’t want him running a team if i had gilbert arenas at or near the point.

by stingy d on Nov 23, 2008 8:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Decent Suggestion

I think our players have failed us more than our coach has though. EJ has made some bad decisions, but this definitely doesn’t warrant firing…. yet.

by se7en on Nov 23, 2008 10:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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