JaVale McGee needs to start. Right now
UPDATE: Added a poll.
In the interest of not piggybacking too much on others' work, go read Mike Wise's case for starting Epic Vale before you read any further.
Done? Wise, as an outstanding sportswriter, makes the poetic case. I hope this analysis adds something to his writing.
Starting JaVale McGee is a pretty open and shut case at this point (edit: I should make this clear that this is very much my opinion. It is one I feel pretty strongly about though). Yes, it's only been six games, and one of those was one in which JaVale didn't play, but the difference between JaVale and Etan Thomas is staggering. Last night really sealed it for me. JaVale McGee starred last night against a Utah frontline that's short, but formidable. In a game that featured the Wizards' best defensive effort of the season as a whole, those moments where McGee was playing center were the best of the best. Not to mention, he played down the stretch and more than held his own in a tight game.
You'll notice that I haven't even discussed the highlight plays, the raw athleticism or the bountless enthusiasm that he brings to the table. All that stuff is nice, but this case is really much simpler.
Right now, JaVale McGee, a 20-year old rookie that is still extremely raw, is playing better than a nine-year veteran that's undersized, overpaid and coming off a surgery that might affect him for the rest of his career. The team plays better with the 20-year old rookie, arguably significantly so. The team is also 1-5, playing without two of its best players, which prevents a chance to be a significant Eastern Conference contender.
What do you do when your 20-year old raw rookie is significantly outplaying your veteran undersized starter on a 1-5 team that's missing two of its best players? You get more minutes for the 20-year old, to develop him and to make the team better. More minutes means starting.
At this point, playing JaVale McGee is the only chance the Wizards have any interior defense and rebounding on the court. We all know JaVale's shot-blocking ability, but he's also rebounding 21.5 percent of available misses this year (and 30 percent of defensive rebounds). The latter mark is something I really didn't expect. We all remember how poor a rebounder he was in summer league, but he wasn't that great in college either. I figured he might become a good rebounder in a couple years, but it's rare for a player to suddenly turn into a rebounding beast, particularly in such a short amount of time. There's always the chance that he's just on a hot streak, but that doesn't happen much with rebounding. That's been the major surpise for me.
How much is he affecting the defense? It's six games, so take it for what you will, but look at these on/off numbers. Without JaVale off the court, the Wizards are surrendering 118.5 points per 100 possessions. Opponents are shooting an effective field goal percentage of 56.5%, and the Wizards are grabbing only 67% of their defensive rebounds, which is a pretty mediocre mark. With JaVale on the court, the Wizards are surrendering 104.6 points per 100 possessions. The effective field goal percentage against is down to 50.8 percent, and the Wizards are grabbing an astounding 81 percent of defensive rebounds. The latter is the thing that's huge about JaVale. Not only does he grab defensive boards, but he makes it easier for the rest of the team to grab defensive boards. That's always been my biggest complaint against Etan's rebounding -- he grabs a lot, but he doesn't take up space to make it easier for everyone else. JaVale does.
This is all happening while JaVale is still making so many rookie mistakes. He's biting for pump fakes, flying out at three-point shooters and not rotating quickly enough a lot of the time. Even with all of that, he's making our defense so much better. Imagine what happens when he gets over those rookie mistakes.
To be fair, a large part of McGee's early success is that he's not Etan Thomas, Darius Songaila or Andray Blatche. Etan's an easy player to like because he tries hard, but he's just not getting it done. Peruse Etan's off/on numbers at your own peril, folks. He can't finish inside, he doesn't clear enough space defensively and his freelancing really hurts us. Again, he's a nice guy, but he's just not getting it done. Same with Songaila, but to the extreme. Darius just doesn't rebound at all, so we can't ever end defensive possessions. Blatche actually helps the defense a lot, but he's so pathetic offensively right now that it's not worth playing him at center. None of those three is going to cut it at center, so McGee gets the job basically by default.
I've noticed that many here are saying it makes more sense for McGee to bring his "energy" coming off the bench, but this is silly for many reasons. First off, we already have an energy spark off the bench and his name is Nick Young. But the thing is, while there's something to the "don't always start your best five guys" theory, that entails sitting only one of your top five. It doesn't mean sitting several of your best players to dominate the bench scoring. If you sit two of your top five, you'll find yourselves in big deficits that you inevitably have to overcome, which is exactly what's happened to us this year. There's no reason to spot ourselves a deficit just in the name of "energy" or "bench scoring."
The theory also works best when you actually have someone decent to play ahead of your better bench guy. The Celtics could bring Kevin McHale off the bench because Cedric Maxwell and Kevin Gamble were very good players. The Spurs could bring Manu Ginobili off the bench because they have Tony Parker and Tim Duncan. Etan Thomas isn't anywhere near that level, and Antawn Jamison and Caron Butler aren't Duncan and Parker.
Instead of arguing about JaVale vs. Etan, I think the bigger question is JaVale vs. a healthy Haywood. Brendan still has the edge, but if the kid keeps developing, re-signing Haywood after 2010 suddenly doesn't become a necessity. I can't believe I'm even speculating about that, but the kid's been that good so far.
So Eddie, please start JaVale. And Ernie, I'm ready to admit that I was wrong for doubting your selection.
3 recs |
37 comments
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Comments
Considering all the mistakes we fans have already made in the past few months, it’s a little ridiculous to call this an open and shut case; there are clearly good arguments on both sides. Patience has outshone impetuousness in drafting McGee, not sending him to the D-league, and playing him.
I guess I’m confused about the distinction the start-JaVale-immediately-camp sees in starting vs. playing more minutes. If JaVale shows he consistently plays more minutes than Etan, then sure, start him. But why make a decision based on 6 games? I understand that starting Etan means you’re guaranteeing him about 13 minutes a game, but with our center depth, giving Etan those minutes is a given.
Not only is JaVale’s sample size crazy small, it’s also really biased. Against the Magic, EJ took JaVale out when Dwight Howard was in. Mehmet Okur was out last night, leaving the lower drafted Kosta Koufus playing major minutes. And JaVale was still rarely used when Boozer was in.
I don’t subscribe to the argument that you should reserve one of your best players for the bench, but part of the start vs. bench decision is deciding who plays best with whom. JaVale has displayed a knack for playing with Juan and NY.
I’m no JaVale hater. I didn’t rag on the pick when it was made and I think he’s crazy exciting. I’m glad we’re having this discussion. And I’m not arguing JaVale doesn’t deserve more minutes than Etan immediately as long as he keeps outplaying him. And if JaVale keeps deserving and earning more minutes for the next 10 games or so, then I agree he should start. This is a pretty low risk route. You can still play JaVale more minutes and leave the option open for starting him later in the season. But jerking around the starting rotation based on a really small sample size is risky. And it would be walking away from the patience that is responsible for the little success we’ve had this season.
by Aldo on Nov 13, 2008 10:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eh
Considering all the mistakes we fans have already made in the past few months, it’s a little ridiculous to call this an open and shut case; there are clearly good arguments on both sides.
That is your opinion. My opinion is that this is pretty clear. You’re free to disagree with that, but if I don’t think it’s a tough call, then I’m going to say that it’s not a tough call.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Nov 13, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps I should have prefaced it with an "in my opinion"
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Nov 13, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which I have since done
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Nov 13, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t need to do that. It’s not necessary to preface all your opinions with a disclaimer. It’s a blog, I get it. I’m not challenging your right to call it open and shut, I guess I was just disagreeing with it.
by Aldo on Nov 13, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess my problem was that “open and shut” makes it seem like there’s no room for argument. An “open and shut” case has no questions or contention. I don’t have a problem with you thinking that JaVale clearly needs to start.
by Aldo on Nov 13, 2008 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why it's been changed
Because even if I believe that, it doesn’t make for good discussion to say so.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
by Mike Prada on Nov 13, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well reasoned and well explained arguments on both sides
I still side with Aldo and I could not have said it better myself. I agree with him (or her) point by point. Especially the bit about jerking around the rotation.
Now I say we vote and tell Eddie what we’ve decided he has to do.
by MR on Nov 13, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eddie and the front office
do listen to us. Right? Right? Anyone?
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Nov 14, 2008 2:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of how the numbers are possibly skewed
it makes no sense to start Etan over Mcgee. Etan for the most part has been really really bad and theres no doubting the potential Mcgee has and the fact that he needs to develop.
by hibachi on Nov 13, 2008 10:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm still in the wait just a little longer camp
But it’s obviously coming, and soon. If it’s tomorrow, I couldn’t really criticize it much.
I would like to think that the starters will improve at least a little, but must admit I have little to base that on other than hope.
Does AD being out and Juan Dixon starting change peoples thoughts one way or the other?
by little stevie colter on Nov 13, 2008 11:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wait, there are doubters?
Disrupt the rotation? The team is listless and defenseless without the Big Kid out there.
by Unselds on Nov 14, 2008 12:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gotta agree.
What is the argument against NOT starting him? The rotation? As Unselds says, please; this is basically a red herring argument. The rotation so far has got us to a 1 and 5 start, and we would almost certainly not have won our single game without McGee’s contributions. I don’t see anything magical, special, or untouchable about our current “rotation,” and I haven’t seen a single stat that would indicate that moving Etan to the bench will somehow hurt our overall production. Nay, the only reason Eddie shouldn’t start him is if he is not ready physically and mentally. That is, if the “pressure” of starting is too much for him and he just tries to do too much too fast. I guess that’s a possibility, but something tells me that McGee is not Blatche. He is getting more and more confident as he realizes that his athleticism is something that almost no one else in the NBA can quite match. He’s an instinctive player, and for every one mistake he makes he does two good things. That’s great for a rookie.
Etan will be fine – he’s an asset off the bench. He’s fine as an energy guy guy who can bang around and grab a few boards. This way we stop asking him to do something he’s really not capable of – be a quality starter that can go against the starting big men in this league.
All that said, I’m not too concerned with things as they are. Sure, we have been digging ourselves some holes, but it’s not all Etan’s fault. Eddie is giving McGee more and more minutes, and he has left him in at crunch time in two games already (Milwaukee and Utah). And even if he’s 20 and has the energy of a rabbit, we do have to be smart about overworking him – almost all rookies hit the “wall” after the all-star break, and if we are going to make any sort of a playoff run then we will really need his contributions in the post all year long, not just the next half season.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Nov 14, 2008 2:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
great post
'he nails an open three from the corner....just like you and me, this one was made by penetration' - Truthaboutit - Round 1 Game 5 Recap
by KDP on Nov 14, 2008 7:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not so sure
i disagree with the logic behind icantfeelmyface’s last post. have we not seen a shift in player rotation from the very beginning of the season till their first victory? the rotation in the Jazz game bears no resemblance to some of the initial games. the overall player rotation of a game is of course much more than starting lineup.
I’m in complete agreement that McGee needs to play now. He brings something that noone else on the team brings.
But I care much more about playing time and whether McGee is on the court at the end of the game, then if he’s there at the very beginning.
I believe it’s nice to have players that provide a spark off the bench. Pradamaster seems to believe Nick Young alone is sufficient, but I don’t buy that.
In any case, I think the bigger issue may be spacing out the kid’s time so he’s available to play at the end of the game.
What do you guys think is a good minute per game average for a player with the abilities that McGee has right now? He got 30 against the Jazz. Does that sound right? Do you think more? If the Wizards need him in there longer, then perhaps it makes sense to start him. But under those circumstances, I’d be concerned about foul trouble, stamina (not just in one game, but over the course of a season for what everyone can agree is a player with a yet-to-be-developed body), and at least for the moment, McGee’s ability to keep just the right composure (I love his energy, but sometimes I worry the guy might get too excited. To steal a phrase from another DC team, McGee will need to learn to play medium – without shedding his energy/excitement of course – and that’s a challenging thing for a 20 year old.
Again, I care much less about whether the guy starts, and much more about his minutes and if he’s on the court when it really counts. I also don’t believe Etan starting has been the liability that people make it out to be – he doesn’t bring much more than hustle and muscle, but I also haven’t seen that he’s been the cause of the Wizards poor start. There’s a lot of blame to go around.
by Johnnie Futbol on Nov 14, 2008 7:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Where is your disagreement?
We both agree the rotation has been in flux – are you arguing that we now have a solid dependable rotation that should not be adjusted? If that’s the case, then what is your evidence, a one game sample from the Jazz?
I think your comments basically proved my point – the rotation has not been set in stone for any of the first 6 games, so why be afraid to tweak it a bit to give JVM the starting minutes? There is nothing magical about having Etan start versus come off the bench. As Prada has noted, a 10 point deficit in the first quarter is still 10 points that have to be made up later in the game. If JVM can make our starters more productive (and thus give us better starts to the game) then the team will be better off as a whole. I just don’t see where our disagreement is, and more than that, I don’t see that you made a logical argument for starting Etan.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Nov 14, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to bash Etan but...
As fine a fellow as he is he has never been an effective center. He’s undersized, he block shots and rebounds, but doesn’t alter shots and provide a backstop to the D. That’s mainly because depite the Bullets determination to play guys inthe pivot who aren’t suite for it, Etan is a 4 not a 5.
I’m new to posting here but It seemsto me that you’ve articulated this debate before in the guise of Etan vs. BTH and that debate took place before Etan’s health problems. Just as before, the problem is that playing Etan (or D.Song., or in past Ruffin) significant minutes at center kills team D and causes losses. So the question isn’t so much how great McGee is but what the price of playing Etan is.
So start McGee, IMHO Etan should not only not start, he shouldn’t play sinificant minutes at 5. Give those minutes to Blatche who at least has the length to play the spot, rebound at a good rate and might hit his groove vs. the other teams bench.
by NeverNervousPervis on Nov 14, 2008 9:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
beg to differ
Etan is a 4 not a 5.
Etan may be undersized for a Center, but he IS a Center. His game is all about back-to-the-basket moves. Anything within 3 feet (short jump hooks, left hand banks, etc…); and NOTHING that a PF needs to do (face up game, jumpers out to 12 feet, etc…).
Now – he may not be a starting quality center…. or, he may not be even a quality reserve center…. but he IS a Center.
Give those minutes to Blatche
Now here is where your argument that he’s a 4 not a 5 is valid. Blatche is NOT a Center. He has the height (6’11"), but not the game of a Center. Blatche is an oversized 3, or a “light in the pants” 4… (love that phrase)…that is being forced to play Center because of the injury to Haywood. His game is NOT a back-to-the-basket, baby hooks, short bank shots, game…. His game is all about facing the basket, beating the opponent on the dribble, and a mid-range jump shot….
by Rook6980 on Nov 14, 2008 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
rook, i agree
etan has the mentality and game of a center. he was the center of the 2-3 syracuse zone, and i think he was one of the all time leading shot blockers in ncaa history. he was AWESOME in college.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 14, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Starting McGee?
1. Let’s keep in mind that he’s just a 20 year old Rookie. At some point, he’s going to be exploited. So far, he has played very little against starting Centers…. the very players that would exploit a raw rookie and expose his weaknesses (lack of strength, can’t hold position in the post, inexperienced, etc…). He can’t be used to the NBA grind yet. Wait until we see if he can still bring energy and enthusiasm at the end of a long road trip, in the 4th quarter of a second game of a back-to-back set. Starting may put too much pressure on the young guy.
2. Eddie Jordan seems to have found a rotation that works. Less time for Thomas, more for McGee. Less time for Daniels, more for Young and Dixon. Less time for Songaila. No time for McGuire, Pech and Brown. It’s a rotation that will put too many minutes on Jamison and Butler, but it’s one that seems to work the best. Let’s see if the Wizards can reel off a few wins, before we start calling for changes to the starting lineup.
3. It’s only been 6 games. Prior to that, we saw a player that didn’t show much in Summer League… A player that impressed the coaches in Training Camp with his athleticism, but was called “raw”….. and was given little chance of even getting off the bench… A player that steadily improved during Preseason games, but was still making many mistakes – and learning. He throws up a couple of double-doubles in the regular season, and now all the wanna-be coaches (with ink stains on their fingers) want him to start. Let’s wait a few weeks, see if the kid continues to impress…..THEN Eddie would have a reason to change the starting lineup.
by Rook6980 on Nov 14, 2008 9:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
ditto #1
I voted in favor of starting him, and would be happy to see it. But one thing I remember from the Detroit game was that, late in the game at least, McGee was clearly winded. Kid has all the potential in the world, and he’s clearly our best center right now, but he also might not have NBA conditioning yet. So that means the cap on his productive minutes might be ~30, and if we want him in during crunch time, then Eddie is free to dole out the rest of those minutes however he sees fit.
Additionally, moving him to the starting lineup could be a real slap to Etan, who’s recovering and clearly not at 100% yet. In terms of locker room dynamics, it might make sense to give Etan 5 more games to see if he can make strides. Dude is never going to grow a 7’6’’ wingspan, but we can at least give him a bit more time before saying “welcome back, we missed you, and how ’bout this rookie?!?”
Then again, JaVale probably wins every opening tip, so that would be fun to see. Guess I’d say he should start sooner than later, but I don’t mind if he doesn’t start right away.
by sierradave on Nov 14, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My Replies
First, to Rook above:
It’s only been 6 games. Prior to that, we saw a player that didn’t show much in Summer League… A player that impressed the coaches in Training Camp with his athleticism, but was called "raw"….. and was given little chance of even getting off the bench… A player that steadily improved during Preseason games, but was still making many mistakes – and learning.
Then to you, sierradave:
But one thing I remember from the Detroit game was that, late in the game at least, McGee was clearly winded. Kid has all the potential in the world, and he’s clearly our best center right now, but he also might not have NBA conditioning yet.
What better way to develop your raw game, to cut down on your mistakes, to condition yourself more so that you don’t get winded, then to get more playing time that comes with being a starter? He’s already better than Etan, so where’s the drawback to starting him? Etan hasn’t been a starter in over two seasons, and even he has to realize that he isn’t the same player he was when he was younger and without a broken chest. At this point, I’m more concerned about the Wizards record and their potential for winning more games than I am for protecting Etan’s ego. Besides, hasn’t Eddie already put him through this with the Brendan competition?
And everybody is missing the other side of the coin. If we start McGee, not only does he get a chance to develop his skills against other teams’ starting centers, but Etan gets a chance to do some damage against other teams’ backup centers. IMO, it’s a win-win.
"It's OK for the Bullets to trade baskets, as long as they can score on their end." -- Words of wisdom from Phil Chenier
by cuppettcj on Nov 14, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
rook, i think you make a good argument here too
you hit all the downsides. i still prefer the upside of starting him over the downsides.
i don’t think making etan a reserve center is necessarily a “slap in the face” for etan. as others have said previously, including myself, etan normally is an nba backup. that’s what he is. that’s what he would have been if BTH was healthy. that’s what he will be when BTH gets back. he should accept his role and try to thrive in it. we could use him.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 14, 2008 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i must announce a very important symbolic move
for tonight’s game i benched udonis haslem on my fantasy team and replaced him with javale mcgee.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 14, 2008 12:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
a secondary announcement
i cut blatche and etan like a week ago.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 14, 2008 12:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I quit fantasy basketball because I didn’t like what it was doing to my head while I was watching games.
by MR on Nov 14, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i used to struggle with that
but now i don’t care as much. good basketball leads to good stats and vice versa. i’ve definitely gotten better at watching the hoops without worrying about the stats.
by DarrellWalkerFan on Nov 14, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Be in so many fantasy leagues that it doesn't matter.
Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net
by Truth About It on Nov 14, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing nobody's brought up...
We may actually win opening tip offs if Javale starts. As it stands now, it’s like David Stern issued a league-wide edict saying we’re not allowed to win the opening jump.
On the serious side, I voted to keep him on the bench for now. Mark my words: the first game he starts, he will be strapped to the bench with 3 fouls by the 10 minute mark in Q1. We have trouble watching Etan, but he’s at least savvy enough not to put us 2 fouls away from the bonus 2 minutes into the game.
Obviously, the only way for Javale to learn how to play without fouling is to get floor time. Nobody on this blog should be arguing for Etan and Javale to split minutes. JM needs a ton of minutes and he’s earned them. But at the start of the game, we’re in a “pick your poison” situation. For at least tonight’s game, I’d rather endure Etan’s ineptitude for 5 minutes, rather than watch McGee take himself out of the game with silly fouls.
by jvflail on Nov 14, 2008 3:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Toatally Disagree
First, we haven’t seen JVM start, so how do we know he would immediately get into foul trouble? Second, he’s averaging 3.75 fouls per 36 minutes, which is less than Blatche, Etan, Songaila, Pech, Dixon, Daniels and Brown. He commits fewer per minute fouls than the rest of our front line! I don’t see anything that could possibly support your argument.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Nov 14, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
Daniels has a lower foul rate – didn’t mean to include him. But the comparable group – the front line – all foul more than JVM up to this point in the season.
Getting buckets since 2003.
by Icantfeelmyface on Nov 14, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The 3.75 per 36 min thing
means nothing to me now. If he’s still averaging this number half-way through the season, I’ll be surprised and impressed. Rookies commit silly fouls. Rookies who attack everything that moves on the court commit more fouls than other rookies. We cannot get so blind in our euphoria to believe this kid can play like he has without the steep learning curve every rookie goes through. I’m not saying we should coddle him. I’m just saying I’d rather watch Etan commit his fouls first.
Also, saying a guy fouls less than Blatche or Songaila is like saying the economy is doing a little less than okay.
by jvflail on Nov 14, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes – JaVale has not fouled as much as Etan, Blatche, etc…. but part of that fact may be that he’s not going up against the 1st unit Center for most of the game – but rather against 2nd stringers and bench players.
Now – true, I saw him for a few minutes against Dwight Howard…. and he did play the last game against Utah and was matched up against Boozer a few times…. but for the most part, he’s been doing his damage against guys like Kosta Koufos and Tony Battie…
So I say- let the rook beat up on the 2nd string centers… show off his athleticism and energy against the Robert Swift’s and Alexis Ajinca’s of the League… Play him 25-30 minutes a night. Build up his confidence…Build up his teammates confidence in him. Build up Eddie Jordan’s confidence so he won’t jerk the kids minutes around when he makes a mistake; if and when he does decide to start the rook. Build up his stamina. Go ahead, throw him at Yao Ming or Dwight Howard for a few minutes…. but not too long; just enough for a litmus test.
by Rook6980 on Nov 14, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lack of a better option forces me to say yes ….. not comfortable with him starting, but clearly other options are not working out.
Etan Thomas has been disappointing. Andray Blatche has been disappointing and I don’t want Songaila playing center, or large minutes.
I think the team should try McGee in the starting lineup for a few games and see how it goes. If it goes well the decision to keep it is easy, if it goes badly well then you’re back where they are now.
by NBR on Nov 18, 2008 9:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

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