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DerMarr vs. Juan: The 15th roster spot smackdown

There's been lots of talk on here about the 15th roster spot, which I understand.  Whoever wins it isn't going to do much in the regular season, but it's preseason and, save for injuries, there isn't much to discuss.  I figured I'd use this thread to put that entire discussion into one place. 

It's entirely possible that this isn't a battle in the first place.  As several of you have pointed out, Ivan Carter is saying Dixon's roster spot "is all but guaranteed." (As a sidenote, if I was Ivan's editor, I would have never printed that line without attribution.  Who is saying Juan's spot is guaranteed?).  I'm kind of dubious, just because DerMarr is getting almost 20 minutes a game this preseason (five more than Linton Johnson), while Dee Brown is getting almost 25.  DerMarr is sixth on the team in preseason minutes, behind Brown and rotation mainstays Andray Blatche, Caron Butler, DeShawn Stevenson and Antonio Daniels.  Why give DerMarr so many minutes if you knew he wasn't going to make the team?

So, without further ado, the smackdown.  This one will be serious, as I'm sure Jake can come up with a funny version.

Category

Juan_dixon_and_gary_mathews_medium

Story_medium

Advantage
Height/Weight 6'3'', 164 6'9'', 201 DerMarr
Best season

2004/05

  • 17.3 pts/36
  • 15.2 PER
  • 51.8 TS%
  • 18.4 Ast%
  • 106 ORtg
  • 109 DRtg

2004/05

  • 14.7 Pts/36
  • 14.0 PER
  • 60.5 TS%
  • 10.0 REB%
  • 113 ORtg
  • 106 DRth
Push
Top role

Sixth man on a 2nd-round playoff team

Part-time starter on a 49-win playoff team DerMarr
Recently... Traded around a lot, but continued to stick on NBA rosters Demoted to the D-League Juan
Position need Would swing between PG and SG, competing with Dee Brown and Nick Young for backup positions Would swing between SG and SF, competing with Dominic McGuire for backup position DerMarr
Shooting Career 50.1 TS%, though can create his own shot better Career 51.3 TS%...awful in Atlanta, pretty good in Denver, though the 60.5% 2004/05 mark is an outlier DerMarr
Passing Not a pure point, but posted really strong AST% in Detroit Never has posted an AST% over 10 in his career Juan
Defense Pesky, but gambles a lot Has the tools, but hasn't always devoted himself Push
Coachability Knows the system, always a good practice player Reportedly has clashed with his coaches.  Doesn't always put forth best effort Juan
Salary Partially guaranteed
Completely unguaranteed
Juan (because the Wiz will have to eat some money if they cut him)
Preseason Hasn't played Averaging 7.7 points and 2 rebounds per game on 33% shooting, but was very good against New Orleans DerMarr

Decide what you will, but I'm personally leaning towards DerMarr. He brings a more diverse skill set to the table, as Nick Young and Dee Brown do most of the things Dixon does. I do worry a bit about DerMarr's attitude, but he seems to be fine so far. I like how he doesn't use possessions and that he has at least demonstrated he can be pretty efficient with his scoring.

0 recs  |  Comment 54 comments

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I'm kinda torn here.

I haven’t been watching the preseason games, so I haven’t seen DerMarr play for us, but I do remember wondering why he started for Denver during his career year (back when I had the NBA season pass). I thought he played a little out of control, and a little dumb – but this is a vague impression from a few games I watched about 4 years ago.

I like Juan, but I can see that DerMarr fits more of a need. To me, its a bit of a toss up. I think it will be easier to reintegrate (is that a word?) Juan, but I think DerMarr COULD pay off better than Juan.

Translation: Juan is the safe bet, with a lower payoff (although it looks like we might actually need his scoring, if I’m reading this right). DerMarr is riskier – could be a locker room cancer – but he could be more useful to the team.

It just depends on how you like to gamble.

The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.

by mamemimo on Oct 15, 2008 2:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Blue Fur

That coat is all I need to make my decision! That is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad coat!

by gbkdc on Oct 15, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

attire

dixon’s attire is far superior. lets go terps

by joshp on Oct 15, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe the pink elephant isn't huge, but....

Nick Young’s knee is bad enough that they left him behind in America….they didn’t even do that for Jamison (ok, he wanted to go with his parents anyway).

Should we be concerned?

I mean, right now, I’m in DerMarr’s corner (mostly).

But let’s consider that Antonio Daniels, especially at his age, is an injury risk — and I’m not sure I’m confident in that wrist injury he opted not to have surgery on…you know, with the way he attacks the basket and all.

On top of that, Dee Brown is unproven.

Who else would possibly play point after those two?

And don’t tell me DeShawn Stevenson….sure “anyone” can do it in Eddie Jordan’s Pro-Princeton offense (kinda), but the more that I think about it, I do not want someone with handles like DeShawn playing the point.

Just trying to see it from every angle…….Juan can play more PG and SG, which is a need, and DerMarr can play SG and SF, which is also a need.

What’s the greater need?

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Oct 15, 2008 4:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Depends

Greater need:

Someone to spell Caron Butler, so he doesn’t break down…. which would be a disaster.
Someone that can actually put the ball in the basket at a partially efficient rate.
Someone who can backup Stevenson, if Nick Young doesn’t deserve minutes.
Someone who can guard some of the big guards and 3’s in the league and not give up 4-6 inches….

The Daniels point is a good one… but I think a risk worth taking. (since Arenas should be back in Jan).

Dee Brown IS unproven – and yes, it’s only Preseason…. but he’s certainly shown the ability to run the team as a 2nd or 3rd PG in the time he’s actually been on the floor. And let’s not forget that Jerry Sloan started him in a Playoff game several years ago…. He may be unproven, but there is at least some data to go on in making the roster decision.

Dermarr has been playing well all Preseason. He seems to have picked up the Offense, and he has not been a defensive liability (yet)… He hasn’t shown any of the negative personality defects he supposedly has shown elsewhere (poor work habits, poor attitude, etc…)..

I’m not saying that Dermarr has the position sewn up…. just that Juan better get in some Preseason games and play well, otherwise he may be JUAN GONE.

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Juan Dixon …. the point needs better insurance and he provides it. He can also play some two guard.

by NBR on Oct 15, 2008 4:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why not...

keep them both and cut Dominic McGuire? There are parts of his game that are promising but I doubt he’ll ever do more than score on put backs. Although keeping both Dixon and Johnson is a more expensive option especially if McGuire’s contract is guaranteed, we need both points off the bench and some security at PG.

by mlarroca on Oct 15, 2008 4:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Because D-Mac is younger than DerMarr

And we have all season to evaluate D-Mac before his contract runs out. Might as well use it.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 15, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

mcguire

you may be right about mcguire, but even if you are, he will contribute more than johnson or dixon will are likely to

by joshp on Oct 15, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

DerMarr vs Juan

I agree that Dmac has shown little, and seeing so much Deshawn at point yesterday makes me wonder if Dee Brown could be the odd man out.

by khrabb on Oct 15, 2008 5:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

He was on the “honor roll” every day in Training Camp.
Eddie Jordan goes out of his way, almost every interview, to say something good about Dee.
All the players seem to like him – and comment on his speed and quickness bringing a change of pace.
He’s played pretty well in the 4 Preseason games, averaging 3 assists for every 1 TO
He’s 5th on the team in REBOUNDING – ahead of Blatche and Etan Thomas…
He’s developed a rapport with JaVale McGee, feeding him a bunch of times with Alley-Oop assists.

I’m pretty sure Dee’s locked up roster spot #14….

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure

the Wizards’ biggest need is at forward. Even accounting for Blatche playing some 5, thereby reducing his minutes backing up Jamison/Butler, they still have three players who can theoretically pick up the slack – Songaila (who might also see some minutes at the 5), Pecherov and McGuire (remember I said "theoretically").

Excluding Thomas, McGee, Haywood and Arenas, the team has four guards and six forwards, which would seem to point to Dixon from a pure roster construction standpoint, especially since Butler is going to play heavy minutes, and Jamison likely only slightly fewer. There are a lot of variables in this, though, and to paraphrase David Rakoff, if the Wizards need either Dixon or Johnson to contribute a lot, something has gone terribly wrong.

by Jon L on Oct 15, 2008 5:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I guess I figure DerMarr can play guard too

And unlike Truth, I find Stevenson to be fine as a third-string emergency PG.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 15, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he can be adequate....

but the idea just makes me very nervous.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Oct 16, 2008 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dermarr

The Wizards are counting on Dominic McGuire to be the backup for Caron.
The Wizards are counting on Nick Young to take the next step and backup Stevenson.

The smart move would be to keep DerMarr Johnson, who can fill in the slack for either position….in case the youngsters fail, or get off to a slow start.

I’m convinced that his size will enable the Wizards to do something they rarely do (except with Jamison) – and that is to Post Up an Opposing team….

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 5:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The only issue with that

Is that the Wizards are also counting on a young guy (Dee Brown) to be the backup for AD, at least until Gilbert comes back, so you could make the same argument (I’m talking your first one, not the post-up thing) for Juan.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 15, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, so...

The Wizards are counting on Dominic McGuire to be the backup for Caron.
The Wizards are counting on Nick Young to take the next step and backup Stevenson.
The Wizards are counting on Dee Brown to be the backup for Daniels.

Dermarr is still the best choice…. he fits 2 of 3 needs…. and Juan only fills one…

Because you can’t seriously tell me that you WANT to see a back court of Dee Brown at PG and Juan Dixon at SG?!?!?

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

also

Neither Dom nor Nick has shown anything in Training Camp or Preseason that would indicate they are ready for the backup roles….

But, Dee Brown HAS shown he can be the backup PG…. at least until Gilbert returns.

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean, Juan's been a 2 his entire career

Except for in Detroit.

I’d rather see a Dee/Juan backcourt than a Juan/Nick backcourt, put it that way.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 15, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Either way

The only back court that makes sense when Juan is in is:

Daniels and Dixon….

Otherwise the Wiz would either be too small, or defensively challenged.

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but...

if we’re talking just about today and not the future, i’d rather see a dee/juan backcourt than a dee/nick backcourt.

by five by five on Oct 15, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another advantage

Dermarr is another warm body with 6 fouls you can put on Queen James….

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In any case

It’s nice to be talking about a former starting Shooting Guard in the NBA, who may not make the Wizards roster….

Shows how far they’ve come from the days when the bench consisted of Laron Profit, Peter Ramos, Samaki Walker, Anthony Peeler, Jarvis Hayes, Kwame Brown and Michael Ruffin

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 5:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

does it play at all

that everyone on the wizards seems to love juan? Gil was openly campaigning for his comeback. Grunfeld brought him in on a partially guaranteed contract when he likely could have had him with no guarantee. EJ clearly likes the guy. All that has to count for something especially since none of us have seen either in practice…

Plus with jamison hurting, gil out a couple months, a center with even less offense than haywood as our starter, and stevenson unlikely to repeat his performance from last year…maybe a high volume scorer isn’t such a bad idea for the first few months at least. You can’t deny that if you give juan the minutes, he’s going to score the points.

by five by five on Oct 15, 2008 6:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And he scares me...

I’m not a nick young hater, but i’m not a lover either…

by five by five on Oct 15, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But why duplicate then?

Juan’s career is analogous to Nick’s rookie year, and Nick is still young.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 15, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

According to John Hollinger…. high volume shooters with a high turn over rate, generally get better… so he thinks Young will get better.

Unfortunately, Juan never got better… He’s still a high risk, high reward type player. He may put up 20 points on 60% shooting one night, and go 0-12 the next (and keep right on shooting)….

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Juan scares me!

He could 0-20, and still be jacking up shots….

I don’t call Juan Dixon a high-volume scorer….. just a high-volume shooter.

by Rook6980 on Oct 15, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Awww.....eff it.....

I’m just going to trust Eddie and EJ on this one. What more can I say?

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Oct 16, 2008 1:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I mean EG.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Oct 16, 2008 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm in the same boat...

(plus i have a juan dixon bias and it sounds like they’re leaning that way)

can I just say i love this site, thanks prada, jake, and truth for giving me a place i can argue about the 15th man on a team that 90% of the league barely knows exists. love it.

by five by five on Oct 16, 2008 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey...

Thanks for stopping by, but mainly, stay classy.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It Dot Net

by Truth About It on Oct 16, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Juan, Dee and DerMarr

If the Wizards are going to compete this season, then management might have to look seriously at the luxury tax. I actually think that these three players ALL bring more to the team here and now than either DMac OR OPech are likely to bring now OR in the future. It is no small thing when a player like Caron Butler makes a flat-out endorsement of DerMarr as his potential back-up.

There are a couple of more exhibtion games left to base a decision, we shall see.

by khrabb on Oct 16, 2008 8:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

except

If you drop Pecherov – as many on this blog have suggested… not only do you continue to pay his salary,; he still counts against the Cap, AND the Luxury Tax.

Then, you keep all three (Brown, Dixon and Johnson)…

Now, the Wizards are paying between $4 -$6 Million for the 15th player on their bench (depending on who you consider the 15th player between those three)…. AND they’re paying $1.2 Million for a player not even on the team.

NO – if the Wizards are going to go over the Luxury Tax, I’d rather see them do it for a player like Joe Johnson or Shane Battier than for Juan Dixon….

by Rook6980 on Oct 16, 2008 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right...

as you set me straight some 25 posts ago. Can we wiggle out of this bind by sending Pecherov (I’m assuming the savings on McGuire wouldn’t keep us from paying the luxury tax) to another team for, say, a second round pick?

by mlarroca on Oct 16, 2008 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

if there was actually a team dumb enough to give us a second round pick for him. also, the team would have to be under the cap to take on the salary

by joshp on Oct 16, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where's...

Isiah Thomas when you need him? Is Kevin McHale still running Minnesota? Who’s the fool in Memphis who traded Gasol for lawn furniture? And MJ, do your pal Abe one last favor. Am I forgetting anyone?

by mlarroca on Oct 16, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the idea...

I was not advocating that we blow through the cap without good reason and in the absence of a better alternative.

Perhaps no one with cap space would be willing to trade a draft choice for Pecherov but McGuire at $500,000… hmmm. Why wouldn’t the GM of an an old team like San Antonio with bench energy needs do it, or now that the Pacers have an exception due to the Eddie Jones retirement, perhaps there is a market there, though they were going for experience when they dealt for Eddie (who used to destroy us when he was in his prime with Charlotte and Miami, how soon it is over in the NBA)?

And as pradamaster says below, who is to say there would not be a market for Pecherov particularly for a second rounder?

The overriding point is that most of the posters so far seem to concur that we are better off with DerMarr, Dee and Juan than with “pick two from this column” and combine those with Pecherov and McGuire.

by khrabb on Oct 16, 2008 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sweet

people are starting to advocate for my much maligned pre-draft plan to dump either dmac or pech.

if we can’t do that, i might prefer to dump dee brown and keep both dixon and dermarr.

rook almost has me convinced, but i am so completely underwhelmed by what i’ve seen from dee brown and i don’t put any stock in evaluating players based on what people are saying to the media during training camp.

screw it. play dixon as AD’s backup at the point. fall back on stevenson or young in dire emergency as 4th string point guard.

by DarrellWalkerFan on Oct 16, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now

I’m not advocating trading either Pech or McGuire, not in the slightest. I’m just saying it could probably be done.

I strongly disagree with dumping Dee to keep DerMarr and Juan.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 16, 2008 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So he's your BF BFF?

I’m here all day, folks…

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 16, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BF BFF!

i hope that doesn’t have some perverted alternative meaning…

by DarrellWalkerFan on Oct 16, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The overriding point is that most of the posters so far seem to concur that we are better off with DerMarr, Dee and Juan than with "pick two from this column" and combine those with Pecherov and McGuire.

Not really. Who other than mlarroca and dwf wants to do this? I don’t. Rook doesn’t. Joshp doesn’t seem like he does either.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 16, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i do...

pech isn’t going to make it (hope that comes back to bite me).

i like mcguire though, not every nba player has to be a great scorer

by five by five on Oct 16, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Problem

The problem is, you need to find:

o A team that is UNDER the salary cap -
o A team that is willing to give up a 2nd round pick for McGuire (please no, he’s gonna be good!) or Pecherov (why give up on him?)

To my knowledge, only Memphis is under the Cap. (although there may be another team, I’m sure they’re not much under)…

Why would Memphis need ANOTHER young 7ft Euro big man when they’ve already got Marc Gasol, Hamed Haddadi, and Darko Milicic?

OR another young, athletic, defensive minded, Offensively challenged SF; when they’ve already got Darrell Arthur, Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick, and Brent Petway?

So….khrabb – here’s an assignment for you…. If you want to get rid of Pecherov or McGuire so badly – play GM. Go out and find a team under the salary cap that needs a young, unproven 7ft Center, or a young Offensively challenged SF…

I’ll be really surprised if you even find a team under the salary cap…

by Rook6980 on Oct 16, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way

"San Antonio with bench energy needs do it, or now that the Pacers have an exception "

San Antonio is WAY over the Salary Cap….

And the Pacers can’t use that exception for 1 year, after the player retires.

by Rook6980 on Oct 16, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it'd be so dumb

To trade a second-rounder for a young big. Young bigs are hard to find.

You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.

by Mike Prada on Oct 16, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

There’s a reason General Managers draft for 7ft players…. and trade for 7ft players….

They are hard to find. Much harder to find than 6’7" forwards, and 6’3" guards.

There’s a saying in the NBA: Don’t trade big for small….

Most GM’s would gladly jump at the chance of trading a 2nd round pick for a 7ft Center that has shooting range and touch. Even if he’s unproven, untested, been injured, hasn’t shown much, and may sit on the bench for 3 years….

by Rook6980 on Oct 16, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know he’s developing, but I honestly don’t see Pech ever being a factor. I think dropping DMac would be a mistake. I think dropping DBrown would be a mistake. I’m a big Juan fan, but I’m not sure he fits as well now as he did when he signed (since Brown has impressed me). I think there is a lot of pro DerMarr talk based on some good play in garbage time in a garbage game.

In other words I think it’s DerMarr or Juan that has to go. A tough decision that I will leave up to the pros.

Can the D-League not help this situation? ie for Pech.

by MR on Oct 16, 2008 12:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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